Armandeigo

[Pali]

Your opinion is well respected Pali, however, I think you misunderstood my statement. From your perspective I agree, but I see no sense in working hard to achieve something just to throw it away when you hit a few bumps in the road, thus, my post. I don't see how you thought I ment a "significant period of time" cause I didn't. I just ment, stop playing right then, clear your head, think of a solution to the problem, and "come right back"...shrug...

Everyone here has such strong opinions, sometimes it seems they are like a ravenous beast just waiting for any sign of prey.

You're right, I did misunderstand your statement.

Llyros would kill non-pinned level 47 Shaman in awful eq. Over' date=' and over, and over. I took 8 straight deaths in a row to him. There were others for him to fight at the time. He chose me. On the forum I was annoyed. "Dude. Let me hunt." He was congratulated by the Imms. They exclaimed, "Finally someone is playing an Avatar the way it should be played!"[/quote']

The IMMs, in their infinite wisdom, long ago invented a way for you to stop this from happening... the "quit" command. Make use of it.

[Grosek_]

Vampires came over from AR with the code, by the by, Gorath was played by the first Vamp in AR (I think the char's name was Pragma). Viri may have changed the Vampire to "fit his needs", but I don't think you ever really talked with the guy on any level if you think he tailored the class so he could **** up the pbase. That wasn't his bag, baby.

As for rarely without one, I think Gorath was his only vampire, although I could be wrong. Not only that, I do know for a fact that he would tell Vampires how to use their abilities... further more, I know he would tell other people key things about their abilities. Before a big nasty Conclave was big nasty and Conclavey, he had an Avatar.... and was told "key" aspects of the race to help him along. I was told by Shadowspawn some weakness of Demons when I'd play them as my Morts... things the help files never said. I've never had a Vamp or an Avatar, so you know they're not me... and these people got no "special" treatment, either. I'm sure others were given to keys and told "by the way, the car handles better if you put Premium in the tank."

Another thing about "back then", is that the MUD was flourishing, or getting to that point. Many, many players meant a lot less time to sit and chat with all the applicants, so a lot were passed through, in my eyes. Big deal... look at the school system, if you can see a kid who can't read at a high school level and they're a senior in high school and applying for colleges.... why not a Vamp player that struggled with RP? Gotta learn somehow, and in my eyes the best way is, "sink or swim."

Why aren't there "sucky" Vampires? They don't make it to 50, first off. I've seen a few (not a lot, won't lie there, maybe two or three) that never made it Pinn. It's a learning curve. The cream of the crop usually get the Vamps, the Crusaders, the Psi's, etc. That's cause they know their crap, so they can be good with any class.... usually.

Anyways... as for trashy play in the old days... it was a different world entirely. Full looting had to happen, because if you didn't take the stuff from that guys corpse you just offed, your enemy would and he'd come looking for you. Also, if you're target got into your PK range again, and came near you... you better believe you offed him again. Why? He had a full cabal of friends re-equiping him, and his friends were usually in your PK range. Keep one guy naked and re-equiping, you've kept at least half the cabal helping him get gear again. Takes care of half your problem.

As for Llyros, he spanked me so many times it wasn't funny. Died to him... probably five times in an hour. But, that was Cabal warfare in the day... and I was a neutral warmaster. But you're right, the game changed for the better... because if it didn't we wouldn't be here. The game evolved to stay alive. If everyone was cut throat bastards today, we'd have less than 14 people on right now... because a lot of these are probably newer players than 1.0. Now, if we had 40 players on now... things would get more violent.

And being an IMM does tell you some things about the game... but not every IMM in the day had access to the code, and none of the lower level IMMs were told how everything worked. I'm sure IUTBS wasn't even told how everything worked down to the details. (I can only speak for 54 and lower, as I never got higher than that before quitting)

a-g

ah, not a flame, or a rant. Just a rehashing of my memories. No hard feeling towards anyone.

Now, you are assuming I've not spoken with him and Crypticant. I have. Vampires were modified to give them an interesting edge over certain aspects of the game that have been since modified themselves, changed, or utterly removed. I never said he changed them to F up the pbase, but it was a very whim based class from its inception.

He had, at least that I am counting, eleven other vampires though I cannot name them to save my life. One was adv'ed to 50 for the sake of testing something from what I was lead to believe (though that information could be a fabrication as it did not come from the horses mouth but several ponies), and was kept and played at 50... the others were just normal run of the mill genociders.

I am one of the people who received a vampire and multiple undeads from him, by the by. He had schooled me an immeasurable number of times, as did Crypticant, about aspects of the race or class I was unaware of. I am not saying they did not root for the underdog... quite the opposite. In an effort to balance things out, a number of the underdog players were given help or qraces to keep them playing here... at the time.

Your point on character slipping through to getting a qrace is well recieved. In fact, I think that should happen more often. What I am trying to explain is that although right now vampire have to be the pinnacle of RP and PK, the main judge was their extreme PK record or lack there of (it seemed being the happy medium was rarely gifted qraces at the time).

There were three levels at the time, as I previously stated. The Informed, the Uninformed, and the Coders. I was the middle one. The five of the first one came from AR and would spank my and call me Sally, so I was given a tool to spank back a little.

======================

Sorry if I am unclear. I will sum up. I see Vampires as a tool for a blooming mud to retain certain players drafted from another mud, as well as to help newer players survive PK long enough to enjoy it. The latter worked for me.

Now, we no longer have many newer players and they are never given vampires... EVER... anyways. We don't have drafted players we need to retain either. I would be hard-pressed to think of a valid reason to keep a class like vampire the way it is, other than an occasional gift for an exceptional person or the fact that what is not necessarily broken should not be necessarily fixed. For the first reason, perhaps they should be looked at a bit more and given some more RP tools and less PK tools. I wish I could go in to specifics, but I would risk a spanking.

=======================

... and A-G, I've known you for quite some time. I wouldn't take anything from you as a flame save but for your personality. You flamer.

[Deykari]

An Elf AVATAR (read: aggressive anti evil) vs. a shaman (read: master of plagues and poison, curses and hexes.).

Hrmmm, I can see why he should have left you alone.

If we played everything out purely as should be properly roleplayed, we'd have every good in the realms grouped together ganging every evil as soon as they unghosted, because why shouldn't goodies band together to take evil down (excluding the few individuals who may have a more 'individual roleplay') until it ceases to exist? We'd have tons of evils grouped together ganging and full looting the elf paladin that hits 42 for fun. The game would cease to be fun and/or playable.

Now whilst an Avatar is bound to kill evil, at some point their roleplay must give way to some degree of 'OOC mercy' (where your character roleplays leaving you alone IGly because OOCly he doesn't want to kill you naked again) for the sake of playability - else we will have an Avatar killing said evil 61 times as soon as they unghost, or until they quit. I myself have had an 'extremist purity view' Avatar Elf and after killing an evil once or twice, I would leave them alone for a considerable amount of time. I could go after another evil, or simply roleplay something out that is acceptable for the avatar IGly with OOCly giving the player a chance (and there are many ways to roleplay this). I believe this is what Mudder was getting at.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, the above isn't directed towards anybody or any scenario, or necessarily my own view on PK - just explaining what I think Mudder was trying to get across.

We have the Immortals here to monitor what is acceptable and unacceptable with the whole ganging/multi-killing stuff, but they're not always around, and some behaviour is acceptable anyway, if a few players believe it to be 'trashy'.

In short, the best way I have found to deal with this sort of thing is once I've had enough, quit. Give it 30 minutes to an hour to cool down, then look at the situation. 9/10, I've felt the heat of the moment has frustrated me, and that in hindsight, I've done silly things that have gotten myself killed that could have been prevented, and so on. Sorry folks, but a couple of full-loot deaths doesn't qualify as 'trashy' PK and neither does it if it happens to a non-pinn by a pinn.

However, if you do feel you are a victim of genuine 'trash' PK then report it - and bear in mind that qrace/qclass/cabal elders+ (and the lower ranks to some degree) are held to higher standards with respect to what they can 'get away with'. In my experience here, -every- time I've had one of these situations, it has been resolved by the Immortals the Immortals have pointed out where I am misinterpreting the situation, or spoken with the other player.

Dey

[-Totenkopf-]

Hey dude, I know where your coming from, its been ALOT of years since I've played. I did give it a try one or two times, got a character to level 50, got a qclass (Lich), leveled up to 46ish, had to stop playing for a month or two, came back and my character was lvl 10 again for some unknown reason? Anyway, leveled back up to mid 40's again (had to retrain EVERYTHING == hooouuurs) Stopped playing for a month or so again (don't really recall the reason) came back, and I was level 10 again. I just logged off and haven't touched it since. I just don't have the thrill for it anymore, and getting kicked in the ballsack twice (and wasting many many hours of my time) just made me decide there were better things to do.

Now adays I spend all my cash on modifying cars and other stupid, meaningless endeavours. They keep me interested for a while though.

On the note of vampires being overpowered, I don't think so, I played 3 or 4 of them, enough to work out most of their little irks. I also fought arseloads of them. There are certain race/class combinations that tend to walk all over the vampires. I managed to kill vamps on more then one occassion (there were decked out in all the good kit) with ogre warriors in little more then mithril.

I think having played a vampire gives you alot more insight into their abilities and weaknesses. I had no issues at all fighting them. If you think they are overpowered, roll one up, and see what floats their boat... and what doesn't.

Cheers,

James.

[Grosek_]

Ogres were changed, James. As were battlemages.

Those were the only two classes I remember rolling over them (if by rolling over them, you mean having a moderate chance of killing them if they made a mistake and you could catch them). Now, I have my cousin Savnt ranting over the phone at me as we speak, saying he didn't have much trouble with Messalantha with a crusader... but that is another qclass anyways (and I only can take him seriously half the time anyways.)

[Mudder]

Grosek. Roll a Vampire. Dominate the p-base. Please.

[Celerity]

Grosek. Roll a Vampire. Dominate the p-base. Please.

As with rangers, I don't know how many times this has already been done...

how many times must it until we can 'prove' something?

[Mudder]

Well i'm counting on Grosek's inability to dominate. Lol. Certain rangers really are a little Overpowered in situations.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

As my time as an IMM (59), there wasn't much I wasn't privy to. However, remembering said stuff is another story (alchohol and a 3 yr. break will do that). Also, I missed a lot changed and tweaks in that period, so my word is not and never will be gospel. But I have played every class here (minus Lich and healer) to 50, so I do think I understand when something is fine or needs tweaked game-wise. Vampires are indeed fine, as you will immediately notice when you get one.

As far as the 'state' of the p-base now... well, we differ on approach and courtesy, and that's fine we disagree. But I won't change my opinions or approach, as I wouldn't expect others to change theirs. I'll play my way and you play yours. Call me an *** if you want, it doesn't bother me one iota.

[Grosek_]

Okay. You're an ***.

That being said, maybe you are right. When everything is said and done, I might be arguing a moot point because of changes of some sort. I am sorry for wasting your time, if that is the case. I guess I would just love to see a shuffling of vampires abilities (if they haven't been), as every other class has been muddied with and improved upon within the last 8 years. Sometimes stagnation alone can be irksome. From what I've seen, they do have the same things the always have had.

And Mudder, if you remember my last real character, a cleric named Reydik, you might recall that I did at one time have some sort of ability. I think right now, you are right though. I think you could give me Kentry and I would roll over. Heh

Celerity, please don't get all exasperated with me. I've been gone a long time. I think I might have missed all of the discussions you are eluding to. What I should have done is forum searched for vampires before opening my mouth, but seeing as we are all friends, if I misspoke (as now I am sure I might have done) I sort of expected everyone would have put me in my place (which they did.) Who is the "we" you are speaking of. The playerbase, or are you an IMM now? (no sarcasm, curiousity)

Acting exasperated and condescending is just rude though, if that was your intention.

[tassinvegeta]

Yeah I think vampires are fine as they are. Perhaps a couple of skills need to be tweaked but only very slightly. How about instead of toning down something we believe to be overpowered we instead, tone something else up to match it? Toning things down makes things dull I mean if your favorite race/class combo just got toned, what's going to make you want to roll one up again? But if your race/class combo got toned up... well we all know how that one goes. We'd see dozens of them suddenly at 50 all the while increasing the size of our playerbase. Its obvious which choice is more beneficial to the mud.

[Mudder]

Why tone something up if we decided that Vampires were fine?

[a-guitarist]

Yeah I think vampires are fine as they are. Perhaps a couple of skills need to be tweaked but only very slightly. How about instead of toning down something we believe to be overpowered we instead' date=' tone something else up to match it? Toning things down makes things dull I mean if your favorite race/class combo just got toned, what's going to make you want to roll one up again? But if your race/class combo got toned up... well we all know how that one goes. We'd see dozens of them suddenly at 50 all the while increasing the size of our playerbase. Its obvious which choice is more beneficial to the mud.[/quote']

Okay, sounds good in theory... here is why the "nerf bat" is a good thing.

If you've got two classes out of fifteen beating the ever loving piss outta the game, you can tone everything else up to those two classes. Everyone will love their boost in power, and the game will get so rad. But... then what have you done? You've taken all the equipment and unbalanced it for the thirteen classes that were fine beforehand. You've made old HP levels inconsistent with new Radness, you've made mana inconsistent with the newly radificated skills/spells.

Now, what do you have to do? You've gotta re work EVERY piece of gear, every consumable, every skill that modifies other skills to balance it out.

Basically, not only is it less work to nerf the over powered class, or tone it down, than tone up EVERYONE else, it's smarter. Why would you want to keep making the game more and more powerful? At some point, people are gonna get pissed because "Well, I used to last five rounds against this type of damage output, how I last two... I want more HP!" then more HP rolls in, and people go, "Well, ****, I used to beat the crap outta these (MOBS/Players) so fast with this damage output, I need it put back up!"

It's a never ending cycle. But if you knock someone down, the offended class, then everything else stays the same.

a-g

[Celerity]

Sorry Grosek, I was actually supporting your case.

What I meant was this:

Mudder said to roll up a vamp and dominate to prove they are overpowered. I was implying that many vamps have already dominated the playerbase. How many more do we need to make to prove this point? I was also saying that there is a similar case with rangers. Many people say "roll up a ranger and prove they are overpowered"---many people have done that already.

Also, I'm no IMM. You think this administration would IMM me? HAH!

[Mudder]

Shh! Quiet A-G! We don't need this thing you call logic!

[Anume]

Vampires have been tweaked several times. If you think they are overpowered, try to play one. About 60% of all vamps suck so much they stop playing again relatively soon. Of those that make it most are mediocre and far from unkillable. A very few survive long enough to learn to really play the class and stop doing stupid things that get them killed. (Then there's the exceptions like Spiser who can play (almost) anything and dominate with it ). At the moment it is a very easy time for a vamp due to rp reasons.

Saying newer players won't get qraces is not just simply wrong, it also irks me. We don't look up ips and say, hey, this guy is Spiser let's insta approve his app. If we see it is someone who has lead to a LOT of complaints before, we might watch a little longer before we judge to approve / reject the app.

If we see someone is a newb but does "okish" in pk (positive record, many kills is definitely NOT what I want to see on a rank 30 qrace applicant) and has very good rp, why should we not give them a try.

(On a personal level I also agree that there are 3 / 4 classes that have a relatively easy time against vamps, + the 2/ 3 qclasses that can be tailored to destroy them (though one usually is not allowed to ).

[mya]

"3 / 4 classes that have a relatively easy time against vamps, + the 2/ 3 qclasses that can be tailored to destroy them."

I am quite curious about what classes you Eshaine are referring to.

Qclasses:

Lich - this probably is the one not allowed.

Crusader

Druid , Psionist or Vampires. ???

The regular classes:

Giant warrior - In my opinion the best one to kill them.

Faith DK - Someone who 1 hit kills a Lich can take out a Vamp

Necro - Lag locking Zombies with flee rescue, and Spells.

Blademaster - Unique Master, if their lag skill can lag them.

This are the classes i feel that can have a ease time with them because they can kill them.

Healers, Paladins, Good Clerics, the classes that are traditionally seen Vamp Hunter they can face a Vampire and they can send him running, but they will have a very hard time getting the kill vs someone who has some skill.

[Mudder]

Good clerics can utterly DOMINATE a vampire. If that Cleric is not stupid, he can get the kill pretty easy.

[-Totenkopf-]

Ogres were changed, James. As were battlemages.

Those were the only two classes I remember rolling over them (if by rolling over them, you mean having a moderate chance of killing them if they made a mistake and you could catch them). Now, I have my cousin Savnt ranting over the phone at me as we speak, saying he didn't have much trouble with Messalantha with a crusader... but that is another qclass anyways (and I only can take him seriously half the time anyways.)

Ahh, what happened to ogres and battlemages..?

More then mediocre, I killed spiser's pimped out vamp with little more then mithril, I think I still got the log around somewhere. My character was a neutral ogre warrior, I would have considered them vamp bashers. Admittedly, I don't have any clue what has changed over the last 5 years, so I am pretty much out of the loop. Went to log onto my lich, but of course, she is purged

[Mudder]

The ONLY change ogres recieved was that they heal less than 300 hps a tick. Though they still heal faster than any other race, just not as obscenely.

BMGs can take lag through reflective shield. Reflective shield only damages people using physical weapons (It used to be workable to make it damage despite them using a magical weapon) and the reflective shield damage has been severely lessened.

[Grosek_]

Sorry Grosek, I was actually supporting your case.

What I meant was this:

Mudder said to roll up a vamp and dominate to prove they are overpowered. I was implying that many vamps have already dominated the playerbase. How many more do we need to make to prove this point? I was also saying that there is a similar case with rangers. Many people say "roll up a ranger and prove they are overpowered"---many people have done that already.

Also, I'm no IMM. You think this administration would IMM me? HAH!

No problems, I apologize for misunderstanding. And yeah, I would have assumed you IMMed by now, to tell you the truth.

Vampires have been tweaked several times. If you think they are overpowered, try to play one. About 60% of all vamps suck so much they stop playing again relatively soon. Of those that make it most are mediocre and far from unkillable. A very few survive long enough to learn to really play the class and stop doing stupid things that get them killed. (Then there's the exceptions like Spiser who can play (almost) anything and dominate with it ). At the moment it is a very easy time for a vamp due to rp reasons.

Saying newer players won't get qraces is not just simply wrong, it also irks me. We don't look up ips and say, hey, this guy is Spiser let's insta approve his app. If we see it is someone who has lead to a LOT of complaints before, we might watch a little longer before we judge to approve / reject the app.

If we see someone is a newb but does "okish" in pk (positive record, many kills is definitely NOT what I want to see on a rank 30 qrace applicant) and has very good rp, why should we not give them a try.

(On a personal level I also agree that there are 3 / 4 classes that have a relatively easy time against vamps, + the 2/ 3 qclasses that can be tailored to destroy them (though one usually is not allowed to ).

Have you ever seen a vampire given to a newb? I am sure you might give them a try, the inevitable question of "but have you?" must come up. I am glad to hear vampires have been mucked with, though. Thank you for clearing that up. I think you very rightly used the word "relatively" in relation with classes to take on vampires. Perhaps it is easy to yourself, but a gimp like me... well... easy it relative. Hence the whining.

[Anume]

the inevitable question of "but have you?" must come up

Yes. (Think the guy deleted around rank 40 )

[Mudder]

Yes. (Think the guy deleted around rank 40 )

Wait. I thought he joined Herald?

Wow. Talk about derailed!

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Ogres regen never really mattered vs. vamps. You will never outheal a careful vampire. It was all about staff mastery/pugil/bash. Lit them up somethin' fierce. When Tot talked about neutral ogre warriors in mithril, he wasn't joking. In fact, I popped his vamp, Azagthoth, the very same way with Argin (remember Tot? The Justice in town got so stoked Azzy was dead, he looted the corpse. Doh! I made him give it back to me.)

I say it again, you want a vamp smasher? Halfling cleric. Pure and simple. I beat Ellowyn around so bad every day as Dienne a chaotic good halfer cleric, that she would eventually just log off when I would log in. And she was tough as nails.

Edit: Wow, just reread that, and it sounded very braggy. Sorry. Just wanted to show some firsthand examples of what I meant. Oh, and changes were made to lessen the staff/pugil/bash rapery. It's still viable, just not as much as it used to be.

[Mudder]

Except changes were also made to enhance the Cleric ownage of Vampires.