question about saves

[yxlist]

Ok, I'm new here, and I have a question about saves. It seems like every time I get into a pk my saves fail. No matter how good they are. 30+ and I was maladicted at least 25 out of 30 tries on the FIRST CAST. Is there something I'm missing? and of course the 30+ was saves against maladictions. I dont know if that's too specific for this forum ornot, like I said, I'm new. But wow, seriously, that's frustrating.

[A Poet's Blade]

If you are who I think you are and were fighting who I think you were fighting, then -30 won't do it. Any class the will use mals as the prime source of killing someone, like shamans, will get gear to increase their spell level in order to beat your saves. And I can guarantee that character does. I'd say get some more saves. Ask characters in game to tell you/show you where you can get better saves gear. There are some very easy items to obtain that will raise your saves high enough to stop the first cast land.

[Twinblades713]

Also, what you may or may not realize is that again, some classes, like shamans and some qraces can do certain things that can affect your saves to be less epic. A shaman will be deteriorating, phantom grasping and cursing. All of those will RUIN your saves.

[yxlist]

yah, I guess I need to work more on the saves. i can prolly double what I had but I still don't know if that will be enough. I mean, this is sorta crazy! Not sancted I DISMEMBER hellstreamed against him. Ice storm MANGLES him, and I just sit there and get cursed/dysentaried/enfeebled/etc etc etc just to land a few damage spells that dont do jack. I haven't looked at anyone really with detect magic up lately, maybe I should try the whole spam dispel magic thing and try to drop their protections, though some how I doubt it would work, or it would take like 20 tries before it worked.

And I'm not bi#Ch#ing, I'm really not, I'm just frustrated, because i have tried really hard and seen not much for it. I feel like maybe its the fact that I'm fighting characters who are A) normal class enhanced by qrace and further enhanced by C) cabal powers. And as far as I can tell only evil characters get that many enhancements? Good aligns can do A and C, or maybe avatar I guess too, but those are few and far inbetween it seems. I saw one avatar for about 2 days and not seen him again. Anyway, its really fun, just like I said, frustrating, or maybe I should say EXTREMELY challenging. And I noticed we aren't being pounded by freaking torments, that's such a blessing! Nothing like fighting an evil person and running or making them run, regardless at very low health, and then a torment or four finds you! Or you fight 2 torments, kill them, low health, and immediately another evil char finds you! woo hoo! Good times. I'll probably be con dead soon but I'm learning!

[Twinblades713]

That's an extremely good attitude. Good to have you.

[Pali]

An invoker is not the easiest class to learn these things with by far. It is a class that is not forgiving of mistakes or of not knowing how to use your own skills/spells effectively. I'd recommend a cleric or paladin as a learning char... both of those ARE very forgiving, can heal themselves, can remove most common mals from themselves... in short, they're good for newer players.

[Twinblades713]

I'm not acting high and mighty, because honestly I don't know where to get ALOT of eq. But 30 saves isn't very good to be fighting a class so concentrated on one kind of spell. Like 30 mental saves against a psi (I hope that's not considered qclass info, as it's rather well known and inspecific) won't do much, or 30 aff saves against a vok won't do much either. Prep is a big part of the game.

[Pali]

You'd be surprised what saves in the -30s and -40s can do if they're balanced out right by the rest of your eq and your fighting style.

[f0xx]

Heh, problems with fighting a shaman I guess?

Firstly, -30 mal is not that good against a class that uses mals to kill. A shaman can drop those 30 to 0 (or very close to that) in a good couple of rounds.

Secondly, you said you are hitting him with "DISMEMBER for helllstread and MANGLE for ice storm when he isn't even sanced". Just because you don't see the white aura doesn't mean it is not there. Use detect magic. Not to mention that MANGLE is like 80-100 HP, with firestorm and fireshield up you can pump the damage up to 150 HP per round. There are very few up to no meles that can deal that amount of damage to a shaman per round. I asume your staff is fully charged but if it is not then get it.

One thing I can guarantee you is that for a shaman, the worst opponent to fight is an invoker, just because a shaman has to stay in combat and every round that passes there is a high probability that he will lose an item due to hellstreams.

From your point of view it may seem that shamans are a bit easy to play, but that is not exactly true - "Lotho tells you: It took Anume 7 attampts to land blasphemy on me."

[Celerity]

I would argue the opposite: Shaman are probably the worst opponents for invokers.

An invoker with a fully charged staff needs to keep their mana levels very high. Mals destroy regen and sap mana. That charged staff suddenly becomes a pain rather than a help. Those mystic tendrils start to add up very quickly.

Invokers might just have the worst staying power in the game (dks?). They can't recover from mals and they regen hp like crap (with no spells/skills to help it). Even if you don't/can't land mals, running around for a few ticks ruins any invoker.

For an invoker to really fight a shaman, they need some cabal skills, a very rare esuna staff, or just to sit near the healers. Either that or to be so incredibly aggressive/reckless that they manage to kill shaman in the run-and-heal game (then probably die to mals). That doesn't happen too often though (if the shaman is any good).

Unless that shaman has a huge vuln you can exploit, it will be an uphill battle even if the invoker is skilled. Even some vulns aren't effective (jet steam vs duergar?)

When I was playing my Knight invoker Sachi, only undead thieves (qrace skill + gag), shaman, and very very high output melees could fight her toe-to-toe(aka ogre/ranger/reaver but even not so well there). The shaman problem was stopped by the staff. If I didn't have it, I would've been running the whole time.

The way to beat any invoker is through attrition, just like other extremely high offense classes (dk, vamp). If you can cut the regen on pure melees, then they are just as weak. Poison on a warrior/zerk means you can get the kill (goodbye moves). Which is why blms have so much finishing power

Because of their brute strength and ease of play, I'd put invokers near the top of newbie-friendly classes. Paladins are good, but can't get any pks unless they are good at chasing. Classes that need to run around and attrition aren't the best for newbies I think. That isn't always easy for newbies.

If you want an easy class to learn and play, just go halfling/ogre tracker ranger.

[Mudder]

Celerity. Did you just suggest ogre as a new player learning race/class? No. Replace ogre with Stone Giant.

[f0xx]

I disagree with most of your points Celerity, but we all have different opinions and play styles so it doesn't really matter.

Lets not go off topic arguing each other, if you guys have nothing to add which can help yxlist fight his shaman friend better, then just do not post.

A lot of consumable and staves/wands/scrolls will help an invoker in any fight, nust just against a shaman, those things you have to ask ingame though.

[yxlist]

you know what would really help? figuring out a way to remove plague/dysentary/curse. Are there potions that take care of these? I can remove poison. I know of a remove curse scroll but its low level so never works.

I've never seen anything that removes plague/dysentary. Mostly I think I have to get the mal save up, as far over 30 as possible. The fights would go alot different if someone didn't squint their eyes and I was cursed, then they squinted again and i'm plagued, then another squint, another mal, and another, its like a hex throwing machine gun! the mals and the staff being fully charged will change this alot. Thanks to everyone for their help and input, and i think its great seeing all the different opinions, like Celerity's and Foxx's, all of them are applicable

[yxlist]

oh, i *did* figure out on my own you can cure them in your cabal, which is handy, but if they land the mal every time they cast you can go through CP's excruciatingly fast

[Kyzarius]

In some fights you just have to withdraw yourself if you get hit by certain mals.

with -30 mal saves a shaman will use their skills to negate them. Shamans have tools with which to do this.

An invoker against a good eq'ed mal caster needs to use hellstream to blow up armor. Take him by pieces, hit hit, dont even try to kill him. Change what your focusing on doing. Erode his armor, withdraw, heal, carry gold for temples. Find Remote temples. When you get hit by plague, RUN, when you get hit by enfeeble, DONT FIGHT HIM. Recover, try again.

fight him for those rounds it takes for him to errode your saves, then withdraw. Learn the text for deteriorate, phantom grasp , and curse...when you see them land withdraw.

Firestorm, firestorm firestorm. Take the initial hit away from him, fireblind is one of the nastiest effects you can paply to an opponent as an invoker.

[f0xx]

Plague, poison and curse can be healed at any temple, at the cost of some gold and lag. For insomnia you need the esuna staff Celerity mentioned and dysentery can be healed as well, I just don't know how, I think it's a consumable. In the past before the global plot, dysentery's effects could be negated too, you just had to eat a certain kind of food each tick.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

hit and run tactics. explore mana charge. utilize flame arrow/icicle. finish with ice storm/hellstream. do not stay in battle toe to toe. use mana attrition. find healing consumables.

[Twinblades713]

It's about exploring your opponent and timing when their spells fail. Like someone (F0xx?) said. You may not have seen the sanctuary on the shaman or cleric or whoever, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. Dispel magic can indeed be a worthy tactic. Remember, you only need a couple of rounds on an unsanced opponent with an invoker. Because I can't get a good reliable tic counter, I've found my most reliable is literally counting under my breath while I pk. I almost never lose a tic that way. Tics are valuable.

[a-guitarist]

All you need to know about Saves.

a-g

[EyeSeeU]

With Meechri even before I became a Savant I did not have any trouble with Shamans or Clerics. With around -30+ svs and -30+ mal you should be ok most of the time. A fully charged staff is the key, it unlocks all your potential. Being able to heal yourself through potions, staves, and scrolls is a must as well.

[yxlist]

lol at a-guitarist

[mya]

All right.

Firsts saves.

Viri once said you should aim to 70 mal saves to fight Shamans.

I would prefer 150 mal saves, but you cant get all.

Specially since you need to focus on mana and HP gear, and mental stuff also.

I personally stay away of Shamans, because they scare me even more than vampires. They can land a mal and them move aways while the mal eats you away.

I personally roll with 60 mal saves on my Paladins. I find it sufficient against all except shamans.

Protip: You can use the bless spells to boost your saves depending on your Deity.

A thing that also aids with mal saves is CONSTITUTION. As characters die their CON drops and mals become easier to land. You can check Help CONSTITUTION .

Also you are a Good Invocker, you should have acess to many healing items.

And depending on your race you can have access to the best healing item in the game. You just need to explore more. This game rewards exploration a great deal. Some things you need a thief to peek to, others a cleric to identify a crap load of rubish crap to find a "diamond".

Next time you roll a character, roll a Dwarf Cleric. They are excellent explorers and probably the hardest class to get killed with.

Now on Healing.

As a Invocker you should HOARD healing items. Potions, starves, scrolls and WANDS.

I used to teleport plagued on my Invocker and ride them out with items.

On damage dealing:

Healstream may bring the awe of peasants but Call Lightnight is the bread and butter for fighting Clerics and Shamans due to their high metal armour.

[Kyzarius]

I wonder what your other stats look like with -150 saves....

can you even really get it that high with eq?

hell, -60 /-70 MAL saves is difficult to achieve without nerfing yourself to base hp and having 2 hit 6 dam

"the spells miss me but the shaman can melee me to death!"

[f0xx]

"the spells miss me but the shaman can melee me to death!"

Rofl rofl

Worst thing is, it's actually true

[tassinvegeta]

Yeah Mya makes alot of good points. And it is also in my experiences that invokers should have the highest amount of saves compared to most other classes because saves and hp are really all they need. Also call lightning was far superior to any spell I ever used against most communers. I wouldn't even go into a battle against a shaman as Lamah with only -30 saves and this is with charge and being able to take them out in 4-6 rounds. Hope these examples help.