Locked Syndicate for evils only.

So by that argument the doctors providing abortions are evil. But the would be parents are not.

That's pretty opinion based on when you believe life starts. We can agree that life starts way before you get a bounty on your head though.

I still do not understand why your argument that killing people for money is evil means neutrals cant be in syndicate. As I said before neutrals only being able to do "neutral" things in FL basically means they can be in Herald or Merchant. I feel like most if not everyone would agree that sounds terrible.

Fact is that neutrals are allowed to do good and evil things in FL after declaring their allegiance, once that happens they take on their cabals respective enemies from all alignments. 

Does it happen that neutrals act evil before this yes and they get outcasted for it. It's not a great solution but people playing neutrals like an evil has happened before so this restriction is in place. In my opinion joining syndicate basically gives most goods free reign to destroy you. Just my two cents though.

Also I feel like we should basically just ignore the prolife bit, way too easy for this to turn into something it shouldn't.

The prolife argument shows we can not apply our player feelings toward FL dynamics. Including its evil to take a life. For profit or fun.

We can probably all agree murder is wrong.

Yet we enjoy a game where its part of the attraction.

The dynamic can be beaten. Has been beaten. And is only troublesome to some classes.

Much like anything else, you need to do something a certain way to win. If you can not with your current it sucks. But that does not mean we need to change anything.

29 minutes ago, Fool_Hardy said:

We can probably all agree murder is wrong.

That's still a solid no for me.  🤣🤣

10 minutes ago, Valek said:

That's still a solid no for me.  🤣🤣

I wish this surprised me but at this point I am pretty sure whatever moral compass Valek was supposed to have was broken long ago.

I think you're equating neutrality with sociopathy. Neutral doesn't mean meh. Believing murder for hire is just how you get paid is not a neutral view.

Absolutely absolutely* absolutely.*

Neutrality is often used as a way to skate around RP restrictions with OOC motivations and executed with lazily-defined RP.

As far as soldiers having to carry out morally reprehensible orders - shouldering that burden on their hearts is part of the sacrifice they make, and makes the evil things they've done no less evil.

In any case, trying to compare the immorality of a gnome murdering an avatar for money paid by a demon, to an 18 year old draftee whose grizzled squad leader told him to double-tap some civilians is disingenuous.

So are we just gonna pretend that taking someone's life for money is not inherently evil.

This.

2 hours ago, 'tarako said:

So are we just gonna pretend that taking someone's life for money is not inherently evil.

Only so long as we believe falsely that they are doing it for the money.

They do it because it is their job.

They do it to progress in their cabal.

They do it for greater ability to affect the world around them.

I have never in 20 years seen a farewell thread from a character that said "I joined the Syndicate so I could become rich."

But lets look at it a different way.

Is the role of the Syndicate to do evil things?

I believe the role is to do unlawful things.

Jusy because a good man dies does not mean the intent was to promote evil. See watcher. See Warmaster. See Savant.

Was it an evil act? Does that not depend on the intent of the purchaser?

I have seen it all. Good v good PK. Good bountying good. I am never surprised.

Again. Change my mind. Bring up a new perspective. Something that does not assume they are killing for coin, because they kill for the same reason as crusaders. More power.

Attributing real-world philosophy to FL is never going to fit. Unless you're compassion or tranquility and level exclusively through non-combat quests... Guess what. You're a murderer. It's the alignment system in FL that allows any goodies the agency to kill people at all. 

Neutrals in syndicate should not get personal satisfaction for collecting heads, unless that kill is personal (attacked the neutral at some point, personal insult, harming a friend, etcetera). Killing for cabal duty is not inherently evil in FL's alignment system. 

If your argument steers away from that, and towards "neutrals should not be allowed to join cabals that allow them an extra avenue for PK" then we may as well disallow them from tribunal, warmaster, savant, and while we are at it disband Watcher entirely. All cabals give neutrals agency to kill that they otherwise would not have. It also gives other neutrals and goods the same extra agency to kill THEM. Syndicate is no exception. 

The idea that killing for money is the reason neutrals join syndicate is a reach with no solid evidence for it. Gold and CP are so easy to come by in FL that it actually loses the neutral money to be in syndicate. I've done the math on it, and if you're fast about it you can make roughly one million gold in one real time hour. Without spending money on consumables. Without risking your EQ. 

The RP of syndicate extends well beyond bounty hunters, too. They're the crime lords of FL. Their main cabal duty is bounty hunting, but only because so few players make the effort to do anything else. But that's not a flaw in the system, rather it is a flaw in the execution of those characters.

I hate having to agree with Lloth but it appear we have very similar feelings towards this.

14 hours ago, Fool_Hardy said:

I will give it an attempt.

1. If Syndicate becomes evil only no good aligned character could ever post a bounty. It would be associating with evil.

2. Syndicate's purpose is to Eliminate threats a player can not eliminate themselves. Whether because of time zone restrictions, or abilities. See number 1.

3. Because of 2, Syndicate can be viewed as a valuable balancing tool within the game. Making it evil only means that we have another evil only avenue for success which creates an imbalance in itself.

4. Making the cabal evil only eliminates the ability of any neutral only race from joining the cabal/clan. Since cabal restrictions are applied to clan guardians for the purpose of Joining, Minotaurs, gnomes, and werebeasts would need to apply to the staff to join the cartel. Meaning a staff member who could be making a positive change is spending time approving unnecessary applications. This also means Merchants will always be evil, unless the staff is further burdened to move that cabal.

This argument has been brought up many many times. I have found myself over the years on both sides of the argument.

We have goods who have killed goods, for idealistic reasons who are now known as repented. Not outcast, not permanently evil.

Yet we discuss whether a neutral should be permanently evil for their RP choices.

I am on the fence on this one. Change my mind.

1. This really only applies to followers of Purity and Life because they have extreme distaste of Evils and in most cases, I've never seen any place bounties except perhaps out of habit of doing so with other characters and spacing the fact that they were followers of Purity.

2. Neutrals aren't technically RP'd that way except specifically within a Cabal, so this is pretty much a moot point in the matter as it applies across all Cabals that allow Neutrals within it and due to the main rules of the game, all rules applied for Neutral being able to PK gets thrown out the window as soon as they join most Cabals.

3. It doesn't make it imbalanced so much as it just means it's one less avenue that Neutrals can choose. Eliminate Evils from being able to apply to Church and it's balanced only in the aspect that it means two Cabals can be Good and two Cabals can only be Evil.

4. It shouldn't be too difficult to make Merchant be a subcabal of Herald. That would burden one Imm unless any other knew how to do it, and I imagine that's maybe an hour out of the day depending on how much coding would be required to change it. As far as reading apps and approving them, I think it already takes too long, and if it's given specifically to whoever is in charge of the Syndicate Cabal at the time, it would barely burden them unless they're extremely busy IG and IRL. As is though, some of the Neutral classes already have to be brought in by Imm help because Syndicate doesn't offer them a chance to apply. It's another point that really is canceled out by that fact outside of maybe having a few more people need to go through that process. Even then though, outside of 'tarako who seems to try combinations outside of the norm that already need applying for, fewer people would want to go through the extra process and hassle of RP in order to gain entry since most people delete or quit a character quickly anyways. I would guess that outside of training and ranking times that the average character lasts probably 50 hours and the ones that last longer are usually top tier anyways.

Personally I'm for removing them from Syndicate and moving Merchant to Herald and have been since I came back and saw how a majority of players actually play them. If anything though, most of the reasons stated within this sole post is more of a proponent for supporting Goods being able to join Merchant as well since it opens up avenues of more sales tactics for Good only characters. As is no Merchant can touch anything that is Good only which chops a few decent EQ pieces from being sold. And that concept just adds further the point that perhaps Herald and Merchant should be one and the same as Herald allows all walks of life to join and it's literally the only true balanced Cabal in terms of acceptance.

Ultimately I don't see this being changed at all or ever. Unless overall rules applying to Neutrals are to be eliminated, this argument will always be ongoing. It could always be coded in that any Neutral Syndicate created would be affected by protect evil spells while in combat with others or stripped of any protections that Neutrals gain from those other perks and maybe key EQ pieces be made anti-Syndicate like the worn leather sleeves so camping as a Ranger/Druid isn't just shrugged off because it cures their drain after a tick. A lot of coded changes could be gone through in order to allow both the rules and balance of the game to be more in line with things, but the easy path is often taken more than any other, and it often results in no change at all because 1 person doesn't want to be bothered with it or there's not an overwhelming majority of people demanding the change one way or the other. The main thing is that the game is still fun though despite all of the flaws it has, but whether or not this one thing will drive people away from playing or not can't be said for sure. I'd worry more about what has chased past players off and focus on changing what can be rather than what can't be controlled like people getting families and growing out of it altogether.

7 hours ago, Lloth said:

Attributing real-world philosophy to FL is never going to fit. Unless you're compassion or tranquility and level exclusively through non-combat quests... Guess what. You're a murderer. It's the alignment system in FL that allows any goodies the agency to kill people at all. 

 

Neutrals in syndicate should not get personal satisfaction for collecting heads, unless that kill is personal (attacked the neutral at some point, personal insult, harming a friend, etcetera). Killing for cabal duty is not inherently evil in FL's alignment system. 

 

If your argument steers away from that, and towards "neutrals should not be allowed to join cabals that allow them an extra avenue for PK" then we may as well disallow them from tribunal, warmaster, savant, and while we are at it disband Watcher entirely. All cabals give neutrals agency to kill that they otherwise would not have. It also gives other neutrals and goods the same extra agency to kill THEM. Syndicate is no exception. 

The idea that killing for money is the reason neutrals join syndicate is a reach with no solid evidence for it. Gold and CP are so easy to come by in FL that it actually loses the neutral money to be in syndicate. I've done the math on it, and if you're fast about it you can make roughly one million gold in one real time hour. Without spending money on consumables. Without risking your EQ. 

The RP of syndicate extends well beyond bounty hunters, too. They're the crime lords of FL. Their main cabal duty is bounty hunting, but only because so few players make the effort to do anything else. But that's not a flaw in the system, rather it is a flaw in the execution of those characters.

What if I'm a compassion follower who believes the entire world is suffering and headed towards calamity, it pains me so much to watch these animals wallow around, trapped in the same forest for ages, unable to escape their fate, unable to live a full and happy life...it's up to me to end their misery!

in fl a neutral cannot kill solely for profit. Be it gold or armor. The exception to this is if they are syndicate. Why is there an exception to a long established alignment restriction? That's the whole point. Syndi may have additional flavor, prostitution, smuggling, etc. The reality is every syndicate is a hit man. Your entrance requirements are collect a bounty, your promo requirements are bounties. The job of an syndi is assassin for hire. There are no fl smuggling rings, there are no hookers. There is only murder for profit.

And again I come back to the fact that if a neutral who was not trying to be a syndi and not in their feeder clan, acted like a syndicate, they would be outcast.

9 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

And again I come back to the fact that if a neutral who was not trying to be a syndi and not in their feeder clan, acted like a syndicate, they would be outcast.

Yes they would, but they do not have the downsides of being in syndicate which is kind of the whole point.

What downside to joining the cabal?

The enemies of syndicate now have free reign to bash your face in without any other reason needed except of course the fact that you are a syndicate. For most goods a neutral in syndicate can be treated like an evil and attacked on sight. Before joining syndicate neutrals do not need to worry about goods killing them.

15 minutes ago, Rensvert said:

 can be treated like an evil and attacked on sight

So, to be clear, you should treat any neutral in syndicate as an evil player. I wonder why you would consider them evil. Is it because killing people for no other reason than money IS EVIL?

15 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

So, to be clear, you should treat any neutral in syndicate as an evil player. I wonder why you would consider them evil. Is it because killing people for no other reason than money IS EVIL?

In a goods eyes sure. But goods have their own messed up ideas on what good and evil is.

But I feel like you can make a claim that any and all killing is evil, unless in self defense

I'm not making that claim. Dedicating yourself to a cause in fl leads to conflict. If your ideology is solid, it's justified. The problem is syndicates ideology does not line up with neutrals. A good killing evils is in line with good rp. An evil enslaving people is in line with evil rp. A neutral killing solely for money/eq is not in line with neutral rp. That's always been my argument

Is neutral rp in line with suppressing martial arts?  Snuffing out the arcane?  Destroying the law?

You're willfully ignoring the in depth RP of both neutrals and their unique contribution to their cabals.  Also essentializing what Syndicate is or could be.  

EDIT:. Essentializing, by the way, is a straight shot to a straw man fallacy.