4 hours ago, f0xx said:
But Raar... killing for money is inherently evil.....
That tone is pretty ironic considering how you agreed that killing for money, Syndicate or not, is inherently evil. I like how you switch stances based off of well worded responses. It really shows how shallow of an understanding you have of FL RP and that you don't really know what side of this argument you sit on.
Th-th-that seemed to be sarcasm to me...
21 minutes ago, Raargant said:
Th-th-that seemed to be sarcasm to me...
That’s the point. He is being sarcastic about that stance, as if it’s a ludicrous stance to have, when he has agreed to it.
Just now, Trick said:
That’s the point. He is being sarcastic about that stance, as if it’s a ludicrous stance to have, when he has agreed to it.
Must've missed that post.
1 minute ago, Raargant said:
Must've missed that post.
It was in a personal conversation between he and I on Facebook some time ago. I could post it, but I don’t want to post blips of a personal conversation.
If he’s okay with it, I will, but won’t if not.
Keep the ooc on AIM! 😛
But also keep the personal attacks off the forums, lest I keep you off the forums.
(Not a statement specific to any person or persons, but a general notice)
Is it a change of mind or is it a flip flop? I would understand the irritation if it were the latter, but irritation at the former is just wrong.
52 minutes ago, Magick said:
Is it a change of mind or is it a flip flop? I would understand the irritation if it were the latter, but irritation at the former is just wrong.
I’m okay with a change of mind after a good discussion, my mind has been changed many times after a healthy debate.
My issue is that an evil could place a bounty on a totally random, innocent (good aligned) person and the neutral syndi would take this head with no questions asked. The victim had nothing to do with why they were placed on the list.
You actually have to deliberately break a law (and usually get a warning first) before you become wanted by a Tribunal. In other words, action must be taken on your part to become wanted.
That doesn't make it the fault of the neutral, though. The motivation of the bounty is not the reason the syndicate collects on it. Clout is. If the syndicate doesn't take the bounty, they become less feared and less employed. They lose their influence. With less influence, they have less power.
A neutral in syndicate has to further the syndicate. They don't get a free pass to kill indiscriminately. They don't get a free pass to steal indiscriminately. They don't get a free pass to kill for greed. They are required to kill for the purpose of maintaining the status quo of FL's mafia, and build upon it.
That's the point you keep missing.
The big factor, in my personal reasoning of it, is that a person joins a mafia nine times out of ten for the sake of monetary gain.
People don’t get involved in crime because they are trying to save an orphanage.(Not including out-lier situations)
Comparing a Syndicate to a member of another faction that has a strong moral compass and truly believes what they are doing is right, is not a strong argument because the two are not directly comparable.
Since we are talking about real life in some of these examples, look at The Iceman Kaklinski. Was he an evil hitman or just filling contracts for the mafia?
Syndicate members kill for gold and profit. That’s the RP of the cabal. They don’t care about who or what they kill, so long as they benefit in the end. That is, in my personal view, an evil act.
5 hours ago, Trick said:
It was in a personal conversation between he and I on Facebook some time ago.
I did agree with your point back then, because you defended it so vehemently and I generally wanted to stop arguing. I knew I could not defeat you in a debate because I simply can not express my thoughts in a written/spoken form as good as some native english speakers can, so I simply gave up. Besides, I always consider the possibility to be wrong, especially when the other side is someone as intelligent as yourself.
That being said, my mind constantly changes on great many subject. Hell it changed a few times when I read this thread. I think a person should always be willing to consider different points of view when presented with new facts/theories/ideas. When I read Raar's post though, this is exactly what I would have said if I had a better command of English and a more organized mind. This is what rings truest to me. I mean, I knew it all along. I simply could not put it together and that made my mind easily "swayable".
So yes, I agreed with you back then, and I was wrong.
All cabals involve pk, the game hardly revolves around pvp anymore. I have had nexus elder who had 3 pks before I got to elder. I'm playing a trusted now with 2 pks. The game is more journals and notes than pvp now which I'm ok with mostly. Which is another factor in why long standing rp loopholes are being brought into question, because more of us are focusing on those aspects of the game.
My argument is a good can act like act knight, and never be in knight, a char can act like a wm without being one etc etc. You can exactly mimic any cabal without ever joining that cabal without reprecussions EXCEPT syndicate. Because as anume has said, very recently, killing just for profit IS evil.
Man this thread came back from the dead. Props to Trick though, you bring up a very interesting point. Syndicate isnt forcing people to join or else they will kill your loved ones. You are not protecting the freedoms of your country or helping it any fashion. You actively must work to join syndicate knowing full well you will be "forced" into killing people for profit.
I dont think neutrals shouldn't be allowed in syndicate if for nothing else than I am against removing more options from the game but you bring up some interesting arguements.
The premise of the argument remains that killing for profit is evil.
What then is the basis for the theory that killing npc characters because it helps you gain guild respect is not also evil?
You kill. You profit. Your evil.
Npc lives matter too.
But you will not accept that, because npc deaths can not affect you personally. Caring only for what affects you personally is evil. Neutral evil to be precise.
See what happens when FL morality is applied to our own world? You all become evil here. So I say again. Stop applying real world morality to Aabahran. They are not the same.
Try considering that your beliefs do not define the parameters of every argument and you might find compromising with others to become easier.
Again. I am not convinced that a change is not warranted if a neutral, as @Raargant stated, picks and chooses which bounties to go after. But as long as the neutral is NOT playing favorites in the endless war between good and evil, I am likewise unconvinced that anything is wrong.
Expounded theory. If killing by a neutral is considered expressly evil, then we must consider that neutral assassin must no longer be an option as well?
43 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
My argument is a good can act like act knight, and never be in knight, a char can act like a wm without being one etc etc. You can exactly mimic any cabal without ever joining that cabal without reprecussions EXCEPT syndicate. Because as anume has said, very recently, killing just for profit IS evil.
That's simply not true.
Try being a goodie and going after other goodies, without being in Trib?
Try being a Neutral and going after Avatars, without being in Watcher?
Try being a goodie follower of magic and going after good Warmaters without being Savant and vice versa?
There is no loophole in the RP. You and Trick are the ones following a flawed logic, by saying a syndicate kills for profit.
This is totally untrue and it has been explained so many times now but you keep going in circles.
Does a marine kill for profit? Do real life mercs kill for profit? Do secuty guards/policemen kill for profit?
"But f0xx, the marine joined the army because he loves his country, and mercs/security guards/policemen simply provide security."
Well they don't provide securty to the guy that is saught by the state, And the guy that is saught by the state might be the nicest guy in the world. He doesn't care that you joined the military because you love your country. He only cares that he's done nothing wrong, and yet, you are here with a gun to his head. Because someone told you to.
When you joined the military, were you aware that you will fight wars for profit? That you will kill for profit? You did. Do your countrymen know that you will kill for profit? They do. Do they think of you as an evil guy though? Nope, you are a hero for them.
Armymen do not kill for profit. The state does.
A member of the syndicate does not kill for profit. The Syndicate does.
It's absolutely the same thing. Or as Raar put it, "a monopoly on violence".
Good wm and savants can never go after each other ever for one thing. You are areas using corner cases to regulate the majority.
And to answer a few of your questions, yes a real life merc does kill for profit if that's what the job is paying you to do. Thats what a mercenary is, gun for hire. Categorizing all war as war for profit is pretty narrow minded as well. Ww1 and ww2 for example where not fought for profit, the American Revolution not fought for profit, most civil wars not fought for profit, the Korean war, Vietnam war. Soldiers also fall under the ideology I mentioned. People don't join the military for the money, you can make the claim of college tuition, but noone has ever rped (to my recollection, no offense to anyone that has. Props to you for playing such a sweet angle) joining syndicate so they could pay for reading lessons with Herald.
A non watcher non oak thief did go after my avatar many times, and I didnt request they be reprimanded because I felt there was a believable reason to their aggression. I made choices that made me abnormal and that could offend people. There where underlying causes that where not profit motivated for someone to attack an avatar. It was also in line with help neutral and help halfling. There was a valid rp basis for it. I'll screenshot the prayer posts where I asked if there was a non lethal way to deal with it where I said exactly that.
A syndicate does kill for profit. That is the purpose of syndicate, it has no other purpose as a cabal besides collecting bounties. If there was note depth to the Cabal I would 100% be pro neutral syndicate. Some espionage, some corporate debauchery and blackmail. The fact is there isn't and never has been. Syndicate is the mafia's hitmen, not the mafia itself or more 9people would be rping as mafia. And that sucks because I've always loved rp from rygo and cyros because of how broad a spectrum their rp reach is.
I think the root of this is conflating a term. In context of the statement you are citing from Anume, @Tarako - profit would mean self-gain for the sake of self-gain. Hunters are compensated, yes, but they are also hunting because it is their job. That job gives them a personal reason to PK. It is also why they are watched very closely, to ensure that the lines between business and pleasure are not blurred to the point of warranting outcast.
A neutral syndicate should not be killing because they want that sweet gold and items. They should be collecting because their employer has ordered them to.
15 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
A syndicate does kill for profit. That is the purpose of syndicate, it has no other purpose as a cabal besides collecting bounties.
A syndicate does not kill for profit. He kills because his organization wants him to kill. And he does it without asking questions. Categorizing all bounties as bounties being placed for profit is narrow minded as well. I can place bounty on you because you killed my whole family.
A syndicate doesn't care why you have a bounty though. Your bounty can be placed for a good or for an evil reason. His job is to collect it.
A soldier doesn't care why he goes on a war. The war can be for profit (as 99% of them are), or it can be for a good reason. His job is to kill the "baddies".
Saying a syndicate is evil for collecting bounties is like saying a soldier is evil for going to war.
And a soldier is basically a mercenary. So you saying mercanaries kill for profit is not what the general consesus is.
Syndicate doesn't care about why you have A PRICE ON YOUR HEAD BECAUSE THEY WANT THAT MONEY. The only reason a syndicate kills is because they are directly profiting by killing a bountied person. That's it. No other reason besides profit.