Zrothum Posted October 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 You can score hot chicks at church. It's awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 But no matter how much I may want these things to be the case, there is no reason to think they are, so I do not. Therein lies (I think) the difference between you and one with faith. We have no real proof or reason to believe, but we do. (we being any of those of a faith) Again, to reiterate, I don't think it means either of us are better than the other. Just a difference in views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted October 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Logic, common sense, and rationality > faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflayer Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 I share a similar outlook to Pali's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Therein lies (I think) the difference between you and one with faith. We have no real proof or reason to believe' date=' but we do.[/quote'] Which I have no problem with you doing (EDIT: so long as you don't vote for legislation based off that faith). Just don't expect me to take you seriously when you're talking about those beliefs. To me, it's akin to listening to someone talk about how they're Jedi or attended Hogwart's (and I daresay that it'd be the same for you if you weren't so used to everyone believing it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celerity Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 I think the important question isn't really whether not you believe or not. What is much more important is what we decide to teach, especially to children. Faith or logical inquiry? We can teach people to have faith in the world. What is faith? Faith is to follow without question. What are the benefits of teaching that? It forces discipline--great for the military and authority figures. It is motivating---knowing that all is working as it should. It simplifies ethics--there is a clear right and wrong and there is no need to spend any time considering alternatives. It unites people--I believe exactly what you believe. It helps with fear--no need to worry about death or anything else that you don't understand. We could also teach people to make logical inquiries into the world around themselves. What is a logical inquiry? A repeatable, testable, observable explanation of something. What are the benefits? It is defensible--solutions can be ranked in order of probability. It is fair--the most defensive answer impartially wins. It is innovative--answers lead to more questions. It is progressive--the creation of tools in which to answer those questions. It is individualistic--I have the ability to repeat/test/observe what I wish. Which kind of life do you want for the future? Faith generates singularly united, strongly disciplined, highly motivated, fearless people who believe they are ethically and morally righteous. Logical inquiry generates progressive, innovative, individualistic people who believe that ideas must be impartially defensible. One of these paths leads to things like nationalism (facism/totalitarianism), oppression, despotism, war, weak economies, a low standard of living, corruption, and on and on. The other path leads to personal liberty, impartial justice, peace, wealth, open education, and on and on. nationalism faith in your country/leaders--ethically/morally superior--already united around a belief oppression to maintain discipline--no need for individuals to decide anything (all answers are already provided) despotism we must have faith in a mortal to lead us without checks (why put checks on someone who is unquestionably righteous?) war Our beliefs do not stand up in impartial debate and therefore must be imposed--we must also liberate the ethically/morally inferior heretics/heathens weak economy/low standard of living we must maintain a strong military to defend/impose our beliefs--we must stifle the progression/innovation which questions us(unfaithful)--faith will provide for all corruption there is no need to question or audit (that would be unfaithful) --- personal liberty inquiry necessitates liberty--we must be able to investigate and to act on those investigations--no indefensible impositions may be made--emphasis on individualism impartial justice answers and rulings are driven by evidence and reason, not feelings and instincts--there is no personal bias peace beliefs may not be imposed--war is unproductive and uneconomical--most differences turn economical or circumstantial (not ethical)--despotism and nationalism are vastly reduced (leaders become accountable, inquiry questions authority by nature, individuals do not unite under a single flag easily) wealth progression and innovation are the keys to efficiency and mechanical productivity. Impartial conditions and personal liberty creates fair competition which further drives efficiency/productivity open education we teach what is testable/repeatable/observable as the basis for human understanding--personal beliefs are irrelevant--all ideas/methodologies are held to the same reasonable standards :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Well said, Celerity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Perhaps then, I'm one of few. Because that is well said to me as well. I agree that religion is one of the most problematic things in the world and I agree with Celerity's post. Not because of the nature of religion, but the nature of people who created it. That's what I try to communicate... that even though, I still believe there is a God behind it. I'm trying to draw a parallel with "science" or whatever you consider your opposition to me and you keep pulling it away, saying it is more correct. I do believe it is possible to believe in both. I don't know if this works scientifically or not, but just consider the possibility of there being a god, or gods. What I've said in my religion classes (yuck) is that what it comes down to is all speculation. And we all WILL know when we die. Until then, theoretically, who cares. I love closing with that line. P.S. That isn't a dismissive "defeat". All your points are legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouselessRogue Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Nothing like religion to get people going, eh? I haven't seen this many long posts in a long, long time. This type of non-flaming yet opinionated banter is what keeps me here. Now go hug a n00b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted October 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 I hate you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Nothing like religion to get people going' date=' eh? I haven't seen this many long posts in a long, long time. This type of non-flaming yet opinionated banter is what keeps me here. Now go hug a n00b.[/quote'] "I may not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Celerity I reject your claim that faith leads to fascism and a low standard of living wheras logical inquiry leads to utopia. That is a highly simplified and narrow view of this debate. Burn the witch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deptore Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Meh, I'm neutral on religion. Churches can't prove there's a god or heaven and science can't prove there isn't. Do what makes you sleep better at night I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iusedtobesomebody Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 My opinion: I simply can't look at a human eye, and how it works, and believe it 'just happened'. *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-guitarist Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 A lot of you may know of me shedding my old "Militant" Atheism for a more spiritual mind set. I won't talk of my personal insights, as my insights reflect who I was at the time of acquiring them, who I am now, and would not meet anyone else's views. And that's okay, that's the beautiful thing about faith. I love churches, or rather, what they used to be. My problem isn't even organized religion. My problem is the Mega churches that are spawning up, the super congregations that are on TV asking you to call in with credit card numbers. As it was stated earlier, churches and religion serve as a tool to teach morals, ethics, and understanding within a community. However, when communities reach a certain point, this has the ability to start and harm their original mission. I'm disappointed to all hell that the local churches are starting to close down, and people are starting to have to drive two or three towns over to have their Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, whenever services. How does attending a church thirty or forty miles away solidify the town you live in? I asked some people why they drove so far to be with their church... they said that these were the only people decent enough to pray with. I guess when it comes to that point, where people start entering larger and larger churches they become clubs... and if you don't have the best cross on your lapel, you're not with the cool kids. I would head to church, maintain my faith in my own way while there, and work as a community if we had a UU church (or one that was more tolerant of other views) in the area. But, as it stands, I would get no acceptance from most of the community if I were to share, or openly practice, my beliefs. So, I do it in private and I don't talk much about it unless I'm asked.... and I'm happier now that I keep my faith private, and share it with those that come looking for it. In all, communities and families do not require faith or religion to lead a moral life, but it can help in times when families become broken or divided. In hard times, faith brings people together to help one another... but it shouldn't be required to do this. If my neighbors asked me to help them in a time of need, I would be there... regardless of their Catholicism. I'd like to think they'd be here for me if I needed them, regardless of my faith. a-g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yxlist Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Regarding Pali: If you fail to see any value in having hope, then you are a pessimistic person. No wonder you don't give yourself a chance to believe something that can or can not be proven. I would say, and I believe all the great thinkers of our time, and past times, that hope, in and of itself, would be considered a value. That is, it is an object or quality desirable as a means or ends in itself. Your entire diatribe here consists of saying Christians are ignorant because they don't believe in evolution, which is proven by science. You have completely missed the forest for the trees. Reread all of these posts. Is there one person who professes to believe in a God, let alone a christian, who says they refute evolution? None. And a number of them say they believe in both. Can you disprove creationism? No. There was no witness to how time began (unless you believe in God). We are not trying to say science is wrong. It can be flawed, as can people's faith. Neither is perfect. So no matter how good or persuasive your argument is, and it is very eloquent, you're arguing out of context, and that in and of itself makes you not right. If this were a debate and the question was, "Why is science correct and religion (i.e Christianity) incorrect?" you would be doing a stellar job supporting your views. That just wasn't the question. That or maybe I'm misled and have totally misconstrued something myself. This is the last post I'll put up of this, I'm not trying to brow beat or anything like that. I just think something simple and trivial was taken way out of context with the simple theme of someone saying "Dang, am I the only christian here", that and the example of a video of a pretty self indulgent zealot that not a single person on here has 'agreed' with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Do not make having faith in things without any rational basis equal to having hope for the future. They are entirely different things, and you can be faithless while still entirely hopeful for a better future. And in fact, I'd suggest that you'll do better at reaching that future if instead of letting faith guide your actions, you let rational observations and examinations of reality inform you as to what actions are more likely to produce the results you want. You need to know how the world actually works in order to change it. And IUTBS... ignoring that you are committing the logical fallacy of making an argument from incredulity, evolution via heredity and natural selection produces a perfectly natural explanation for the formation of the eye. I could link you to numerous Youtube videos that provide easily understandable synopses of those explanations, or numerous more detailed and technical explanations from other places. If you want to be surprised, consider the hypothesis of a super-intelligent designer that gives fish living in lightless environments eyes that don't work at all, or human beings bodies that die a fifth of the time in labor, or has whales with legbones. Evolution predicts these kinds of imperfections... if there's a designer, he's incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Celerity I reject your claim that faith leads to fascism and a low standard of living wheras logical inquiry leads to utopia. That is a highly simplified and narrow view of this debate. Burn the witch! Perhaps, but the less religious Western nations have better standards of education, health care, and lower crime rates than America does. While correlation does not equate causation, it does give one cause to wonder which mindset leads to better societal results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Thats a pretty big statement to make. All I have to say is... AMERICA, F*** Yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Thats a pretty big statement to make. All I have to say is... AMERICA, F*** Yeah. Noticing our nation's imperfections and working to fix them is a far more patriotic act than thinking it perfect and not working to make it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iusedtobesomebody Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 rePali: if you notice, it says My opinion: I simply can't look at a human eye' date=' and how it works, and believe it 'just happened'. *shrug*[/quote'] which means I am making no argument at all. Opinion. Simply as that. We all have them. I ain't changing yours, and you ain't changing mine. It's okay to differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 You just got your name on the big blacklist for commies. Hope you like the weather in Cuba. One of the great things about this country is that you are guaranteed the right to hold differing views without being blacklisted or punished in any way. My thinking socialism has some good ideas or that no deities exist does not disqualify me as a citizen of this country in any way... if it did, I wouldn't want to be one anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 rePali: if you notice, it says which means I am making no argument at all. Opinion. Simply as that. We all have them. I ain't changing yours, and you ain't changing mine. It's okay to differ. Sorry. I'm in "religious debate" mode, so everything seems fair game for criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iusedtobesomebody Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 S'okay. No harm, no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchaeius Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Sorry. I'm in "religious debate" mode' date=' so everything seems fair game for criticism. [/quote'] Then you are going to love my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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