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Evangelion

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Hey everyone.

It's been a while since I've had to do this, and so I'd like to fill you all in with some totally unnecessary (and probably undesired) details of my life, and ask you for advice on how to resolve a situation.

Okay, here's the story.

I am a resident adviser at James Madison University. One of my residents left my building about three weeks ago and switched with another resident. On the day that the resident moved in, I came home in the evening and was talking with my other residents. One of the other resident advisers was doing their rounds and I approached her, asking her to come meet my new resident with me. She said she didn't want to, so I playfully grabbed her arm and started moving toward the room. She again said she didn't want to, so I let go and said, "Fine bitch." (Now, let me clarify here. The best way I have come up with to describe that statement is that it was a "gay" bitch, not an aggressive bitch - if you know what I mean, yay. If not, I can't figure out how to explain it.) So she finishes her rounds and goes and sits in the office. I pass by on my way to a staff meeting, and she calls me in and tells me that what happened made her feel uncomfortable because it happened in front of residents, and she didn't want it to happen again. I apologized and left for my meeting, assuming that everything was okay.

Fast forward two weeks. I get an email from my supervisor asking me to come in and have a discussion about an incident that occured in my building. When I get there, she brings up this incident and asks me for my side of the story. Since I had largely put the matter out of my mind and it had happened several weeks prior, I was fuzzy on the details of who was there and what exactly was said. However, I tried to assure my supervisor that I had no aggressive intent towards this person. At the conclusion of the meeting I was instructed to attempt to smooth things over with this RA on a personal level.

Fast forward another week. I get an email from my supervisor again asking me to come in for a discussion. She tells me that the incident has been investigated, and that the panel of supervisors and professional staff have decided that, based on the evidence, it is appropriate to ask me for my resignation. I am in such a state of shock because I thought the matter was dealt with, that I essentially left that meeting without saying a word. I then went back after I had composed myself and met with her supervisor. I explained my side of the story to him, and he essentially told me that regardless of my intent, the situation occurred in front of residents, and in order to send the message that any behavior of an aggressive nature would not be tolerated, that the decision would be upheld. So now, regardless of my intent and the earlier reasons I was given, I was going to be asked to resign in order to send a message.

I have a meeting tomorrow morning with the Director of Residence Life, and basically my only hope at this point is to convince her to hear me out. If I don't manage to get her to overturn the decision that was made by my supervisor, then I have hit the end of the road.

I don't really know what kind of advice any of you can give, but what can you say based on the side of the story that I've presented to you?

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You are pretty much F'd man. Even if you got that chick to ask for mercy, I highly doubt you will have any luck. They've already got it in their mind to make an example of you.

Sorry bro...but Trump said it best. "You're fired."

At least you're not kicked out of college though, eh?

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yeah you are pretty much screwed. no matter how comfortable you are with a female friend or acquaintance, you are always just a period away from her deciding something, anything, you do makes her 'uncomfortable', and burning you alive with it. thats just the society we live in. sooner or later people will stop giving a crap what makes a woman comfortable, and start telling her to deal with it or stay home.

also, maybe i'm missing something, but you are upset with no longer being a resident adviser? is this a position that people like being in nowadays or something?

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my advice...

dont resign. get fired. that's standing up for what you believe in. While what you didn't wasn't a 'good' thing, even though you meant no harm or disrespect at all, it can so easily be construed that way there's nothing that you can do. It does sound like they're going to make an example of you. So stand up for yourself, let them and everyone you know think its ridiculous, and if they want you to leave make them force you to. Then write the student paper telling your side of it in the editorial. Like we said, it was unintentional and not meant the way it came across but in a 'professional' enviroment its also unacceptable. At least if you get fired you can also get unemployment for up to 6 months based on what they paid you (some universitys just give room discounts and such, so i'm not sure how that would work, but you would be entitled to it).

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my advice...

dont resign. get fired. that's standing up for what you believe in. While what you didn't wasn't a 'good' thing, even though you meant no harm or disrespect at all, it can so easily be construed that way there's nothing that you can do. It does sound like they're going to make an example of you. So stand up for yourself, let them and everyone you know think its ridiculous, and if they want you to leave make them force you to. Then write the student paper telling your side of it in the editorial. Like we said, it was unintentional and not meant the way it came across but in a 'professional' enviroment its also unacceptable. At least if you get fired you can also get unemployment for up to 6 months based on what they paid you (some universitys just give room discounts and such, so i'm not sure how that would work, but you would be entitled to it).

Not only is that poor taste. It's also rather stupid. Considering what we've been told regarding the situation Kyzarius is right that he's lucky this wasn't inflated to an assault case. By getting yourself fired as opposed to resigning you are waving the finger at everyone, which may result in that assault case actually happening.

In fact, reading the situation again, it could possibly be escalated to sexual assault as he did use a derogatory term to refer to the girl (though I do understand that you didn't mean it that way).

I'd say take the resignation. Or, write a very well-written letter of apology to the girl, your supervisor, her supervisor, and the head of your residential association. At this point, you probably don't have much leverage to keep your position, and it may even require public acknowledgment and apology, which could result in some unfavorable press your way.

Really, it's a tough case, you set yourself up to fall pretty hard. The time frame for the incident as well is kind of stretched out, and that will probably work against you. But I'd say ***-kiss your way to the top, starting at the bottom. It can't hurt you anymore than you already are.

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Its not stupid. I just think of myself as 'chaotic good'. I admit what he did was not the best idea, though its obvious he feels remorseful and had no intentions. My line of thought considering this entire thing is it could *easily* be swept under the rug, if it were just allowed to. He *did* offer an apology, and if it was sincere, it should have been taken and accepted by any mature adult. Obviously it wasn't. I agree maybe he should make a public notice of he acknowledging what he did was in poor taste, to let everyone who witnessed it know it was unintentional and etc. There is nothing wrong, nor stupid, nor in poor taste about standing up for what you believe in. Its what makes this country what it is today. Its about exercising your God given rights not only as an admittedly flawed person, but as an American who has free speech and can say what they want. If you feel the institution has guidelines you don't agree with, or is displaying a manner that promotes disregard, then by all means let everyone know so. It sometimes takes a little rocking to get a boat moving.

Unfortunately in all likelihood its not going to work out the best for him, no matter how much *** kissing he does. I work for a fortune 500 company with very strict guidelines on EVERYthing. That gets you promoted, but if you cross one of those lines it will not keep you your job. The reason I say to make a written letter to the editorial is because even though he *is* probably going to lose his job, hopefully a well written and insightful letter will also help the university learn its own lesson for a future mishap of this sort. And that way, everyone has a valuable lesson learned.

But its ok if you disagree with me.

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While there is certainly nothing wrong in standing up for what you believe in, doing so in the way you recommended could have very harmful consequences. As he did want to keep his job, blowing of the resignation and getting himself fired is definitely not the way to go about that. Additionally, as touchy as this case seems so far, I can easily see it escalating if he were to do so.

A letter to the editor of his school's newspaper is certainly not a bad idea, regardless of the outcome. As you are right, letting it be public knowledge of how he feels he was treated, and his side of the situation is great. It may cause changes in the system that will benefit people like him later on.

But as he did cause the problem, admittedly not on purpose, I fail to see how taking a stand is going to benefit him in this case. It has too much potential for backfire (loss of job, public knowledge anyways, loss of a reference). I think he would be much better off apologizing to all parties involved and trying to work out a resolution, or accepting the resignation with grace, and then writing a letter to the editor.

edit: Actually an editorial would be perfect here, especially since the professionalism from his supervising staff seems a little lacking too in my opinion. In my workplaces, with incidents that involve an investigation of the employee's behavior, the employee is notified of the investigation and allowed to prepare a defense. It seems that in this case, the investigation was done without prior knowledge, and after he had been instructed to work with the other RA to resolve the issue.

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From my experience:

(1)

People in the position of your supervisors do not want you to argue with them about this girl is hysterical, and she totally took what you did out of context. They want to hear that you are really, really, really sorry and it will never happen again.

I suggest when you talk to whoever you've got to talk to take an apologetic line and just reiterate how you never meant any offense, and you realize that what you did was inappropriate, and it will never happen again. As opposed to the, "Man ... I didn't even do anything, that skank is just nuts!" approach.

(2)

You said that you talked it over with the girl and she seemed less annoyed about it than your supervisors. If you're on talking terms with her, maybe ask her to either go along or write a letter saying that she has accepted your apology and is satisfied that you didn't mean anything by it and won't do it again. I don't know if this Director takes submissions or whatever, but also getting people to write some references of your character may help.

(3)

If your version of events is correct, I think it is ridiculously unlikely that the event will have any legal consequences. I don't think the requisite elements of either assault or sexual assault are even nearly satisfied.

But then again, you do live in a country in which burning your mouth on hot coffee is worth about $5 million, and an actual JUDGE sues a dry cleaning store for $50 million over a pair of lost pants ;p

That's all I can think of right now.

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This is the damage of political correctness. Now, I like it in most regards, but sometimes it's just taken too far. This being a prime case. If this was 'back in the day' you'd been simply told, "Knock it off." But in today's world with today's VERY LIBERAL college campuses (even the conservative schools are liberal compared to the 'real professional' world.) this kind of interaction is taken out of hand.

It is complete horse**** that you are being told this was "unprofessional", if it happened in a REAL workplace, and not a place where people your age are supposed to learn how to interact with one another, then yeah... fire, resignation, whatever. Here? F'n A...

This is COLLEGE, not the Marine Corps... you're supposed to act like an idiot, do things you'll regret and then learn from them. If your actions bring about consequences that demand harsh response, then so be it. Touching some 'co-workers' arm and playfully calling her a 'bitch' is not par the course for you losing your job and position and killing any political career you wanted to have (not sure if you still want that).

But what can you do? Nothing. You're boned. Completely boned. Because people think that 20 year olds are capable of making completely rational decisions? Well, they may have been able to 50 years ago when the average 20 year old held down a job and had a kid.... but in today's world, it's so strange. You've got people at the age of twenty eight who just got out of school with a Masters or Docterate.... and they've never worked a single day in their life.

Please, Bali, know I'm not saying you're immature or stupid or whatever, but the fact is... they're treating you like you should have known this was 'unacceptable' when... it happens all the time, you saw it all through high school and it wasn't punished there, you probably saw it at all your jobs, too. (Jobs in the real world, mind you, I know you worked a lot). When I worked on the canal, I lived, ate, and shared rooms with my co-workers. If we got upset, we'd let them know. We said a hell of a lot worse than "bitch" (and you said it playfully, we didn't), we'd push each other out of the way, and we'd just be dicks.... at the end of the day, we'd apologize, buy a round at the bar, and call it a night at 3am, up the next morning to do the same thing.

You live within the same building as the damn girl (that's what she is if she's getting bent out of shape about this... not like you grabbed some *** and told her explicit things). If you grabbed my arm, called me a bitch, and walked away... I throw an empty soda bottle at you and continue with the day. (or would have in college).

In short, I'm frustrated as **** that this crap happened to you. And it pisses me off. Because some prissy, little, PC feminazi is getting bent out of shape because she wants to stick it to the man, that or she was raised in a very strict household that didn't let her do a damn thing, you're gonna be burned for it.

Screw protecting those that don't live in the real world. If they want to live in happy land where everyone is equal and nothing bad ever happens to them, then that's where they should stay. That is NOT college. And what you did wasn't even a problem... and, dare I say, funny? I can see you saying that, doing that, and you know what? I have to giggle.

Bali, you are cooked, and I'm very sorry. I wish I could help. Come to Central New York, I'll give you a job on the family farm, sugar tits... you can rub my bunions. (that would have been a job ending line... not bitch)

a-g

ps: No problem with Feminist. Big problem with Feminazis.

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Having been a RA myself and experience a similiar situation through someone else I can sense your frustation. However you made a mistake through two different viewpoints. First off all you called a fellow staff member a bitch in front of the residents. This shows a sign of disrespect in a workplace environment and can "lead" to her residents disrespecting her. From the other viewpoint her feelings could have been hurt. In my experience you only play around like that if you are EXTREMELY cool with the other person and they are your friends. Bad luck for you. I would have probably gone my merry way but maybe she didnt like you and decided to pursue this through.

The only way to save yourself would be to have your residents sign a petition not to fire you...would only work if your residents adored you and if you were known as one of those super RA from the supervisors and your GHD. In the end, dont be bitter and especially dont burn the bridges behind you. You can always reapply next semester in another area. Free food, discounted room and board, and a decent paycheck is too good to lose...

~KL

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But what can you do? Nothing. You're boned. Completely boned. Because people think that 20 year olds are capable of making completely rational decisions? Well, they may have been able to 50 years ago when the average 20 year old held down a job and had a kid.... but in today's world, it's so strange. You've got people at the age of twenty eight who just got out of school with a Masters or Docterate.... and they've never worked a single day in their life.

Umm...the avg. 20 year old still holds done a job and has a kid(s)...

And not all people who have advance degrees havent worked in their lives.

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Umm...the avg. 20 year old still holds done a job and has a kid(s)...

And not all people who have advance degrees havent worked in their lives.

Hate to break it to you, but if you're 20 and have a job and kids... you're not average. And I never said "Everyone that has advanced degrees don't" ... I said "You've got people who...".

Walk around your town, go to the local community colleges or universities (CC's around here, local Uni's are Syracuse, Lemonye, and one other, and other than that, the rest are 30min drives away.)

You'll see a bunch of 18 year old, 19 year old, 20, 21 year olds who don't have jobs (you can tell because you ask them if they do, and if they say 'no', that means they don't. if they say, 'yes', and then they follow it with, 'I sell things on the side' that still means no.). They don't have income. They have a credit card from mommy and daddy, or just whatever the could scrounge up (how it was when I was in High School, and this is getting rarer and rarer with the 'free plastic money from mom'). The ones that do have jobs... they aren't jobs that would support a family. Sure, walmart may pay you 7.15 an hour and you may work 40 hours a week, but the turn over rate at walmarts (At least in this area) is jaw dropping.

Of the 20 year olds I know that have kids... none support themselves (even when the other parent is in the picture). Of the 20 year olds that I know that don't have a kid, they don't even support themselves. They work 35 hours a week, blow their cash on booze and drugs, and then wonder why they can't get a "real job".

So, Kill, you may be 20 (or were 20) with a kid and a job and supporting yourself. And if that is the case, you are anything but average. You're above average, you're beating the curve by a mile, and you've got my applause. It's the nature of the beast (society) we're in that causes this dilemma with 20somethigns not knowing "a decent days work".

And it's not a "broken" society. It's an evolving one. We're used to instant gratification on just about everything. You want a burger? One dollar and a five minute drive. You want to research ancient troy? Thirty seconds on the web. You want to find out the score of all the teams you've got fantasy players on? Three minutes on the web. You want the weather? Weather channel, on the 8's or channel 10 on the 10's. Want to get through the checkout line quickly? Credit card on the machine right infront of where you used to write checks. Have to write a check (thanks a lot, jackass, holding up the line and what the heck?! get with the times!)? Give a blank one that you signed to the cashier and they'll print the rest with their machine. Want to rent a movie? Netflix, or any of the others with the streaming abilities. You never left your house and never took off you underwear from two days ago. And once your laundry fails the sniff test? Call up the local laundrymat and they'll pick up, wash and deliver.

You don't have to actually do anything "real" to get the information/goods your want. And this isn't bad... it just means that society has to get used to the new technologies and service industry. (we're a service based economy, so to make a living you have to serve better than someone else- in general-, so it's good that things happen instantly now.)

Teens and young adults (of which I'm the latter) will have to learn the work ethic of our parents, and their parents, and so on. It's just we have the hurdle of having everything handed to us (don't take this as how it's read, it's a turn of phrase) on an easier route than those who brought us in. (and I can talk in general here because we're talking about a massive margin, statistically... I'm talking the US population... not one town or city).

With ~66.5% of Homes in the US with the Internet (as of 2003 - 92% >100k, 41% <40k), it isn't hard for anyone without it to borrow it... or go to a library and use it. And that's another thing... going to the library for research and using a computer instead of the books. :)

Also, many business offer near-instant returns on services. One hour photo developing or it's free, 30 minute pizza delivery or it's free, Site to Store Photo developing in 30 minutes or free, 20 minute oil change or half off, and then look at the internet speed: Started at dial up, and then, in a short time, we're up to fiber optic in many areas. (I'll never see it, because I don't want to pay what they charge, but, it's there should I need even faster news, porn, lolcats, weather, videos of dogs getting stuck together after sex, games, etc.) Dial up my family paid 30 bucks for, back in the day, now costs five bucks.

So, what we have is a generation who raised us (I'll use this term as most of us here are not 30+) instilling ethics from an age when if you wanted a burger, sure, you could get it for cheap and quick... but you just grilled it yourself. And if you wanted to find out about Troy... you went to the library and took out a few books. And photo development... took days. That was a time when being a plumber or a construction worker was an 'honourable' profession... instead of a "Well, Son, you failed out of school. You're a disgrace to the family, go get the wrench and plunger... if you're not going to make something of yourself, you might as well get paid for doing nothing with your life." (which is another gripe. In a service industry, you look down on the guy that makes sure your **** doesn't pool in your bathroom and allows you to smell good and look good to sell more of your services? That's just crazy logic there.)

Then look at High School Teams/clubs/sports. I've seen them do nothing but decline. When I was in HS, my school's band was huge. I recently saw them... they were a third the size. Then the football team... half the size when I was in school. Why learn an instrument when you can play guitar hero and get the same admiration for making the same music? (I've never played guitar hero, but I don't hate it. I like it, a lot actually. And I'm jealous I didn't think of it first) Why play a game of football and beat that kid from the next town over that stole your girlfriend (who you met on the internet) when you could challenge him to a game of madden on Xbox live?

Hrm... it really seems I'm anti-internet. I'm not. I'm just pro-teach kids that there is more to the world than what you see on a screen. Hell, I didn't really have a life until I was in my twenties because of the internet. I was among the second or third batch of kids sucked into the not-dump-trucks-series-of-tubes.

On, and to get back on topic. Bali, I still have that offer for bunions... and when WC returns... his bosom might need attention.

a-g

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I hate to break it to you AG...but maybe you need to expand your circle especially if you know a bunch of druggies who get spoon fed from other people. Avg. people in their 20's (although your second post on this matter clearly stated that perhaps you meant early 20's) do have kid(s) and hold a job. What they do with that money is there concern. Regardless a source of income is acquired.

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Believe me, I am expanding my circle, but don't worry about my social life... it's all good. And, as it expands, 20s are not knocked up and working and doing things to support themselves. When I said "20's" in the first post, I literally meant 20 year old people.

And you're semi right as in what they do with their money is their concern. But that's a debate for another time. In the short term, you're totally right. I don't care how they get their money, or how they spend it. Or what they ingest with what they bought. But, it does go on to prove my point, that if they're(we're) using money they(we) don't have, we're moving the need to adapt to an instant society sooner. Not bad, not good. Just a point.

I know many people who are 25 and older who have kids and support their families and live productive lives. I know a few more (2) below that age, and I know none (0) below 21. And, as a bit of what you give for what you get... if everyone you know in their early 20's takes care of their kids they have and are great people making a great life for themselves... leave the country club ;) (please realize that was a big joke, and I do not truly feel you're a "richy rich" kid. Also, because 90% of what I say sems to be taken and contorted to strange and unintended meanings, I have no real problem with "richy rich" kids.)

Also, not everyone I know are druggies who get spoon fed and have kids. Some are people who have kids. Some are druggies. Some just get spoon fed. Others are combination's of all the options. And a lot of people I know are damn great parents and great members of society.

a-g

Edit: And, Aluian, thanks much for the applause. I love the Avatar for once, as it finally fits with what I think when you respond to my posts. :)

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Feminazi. The irony of that portmanteau always amuses me.

Balinor. I feel for your situation. What was your relationship with this Resident Advisor like before this situation? Cordial or Friendly? There is a big difference. This is why you do not joke (especially physically) with anyone until you know their level of comfort. For all you know, she could have been raped in the past. A bit of a strecth, but you get the point.

If I were in your position, and I wanted to keep my job, I would apologize (which you have already done). Furthermore, I would suggest the idea of holding some sort of joined hall meeting/event with her residents along with yours. You would discuss what you did, why it was wrong (using general topics such as work-related behavior, miscommunication, conduct et cetera), and how your residents can learn from your (unintentional) mistakes. Not only will this prove your contrition, but it will show that you are serious about your job.

You may also want to consider talking to her once again, let her know their decision and finding out her opinion on it. If she responds by telling you that you "deserve what you got" then you know that her motives were more vengeful and not for the purpose of conflict resolution. If her response is more along the lines of "Wow, I didn't think they'd take it that far" then you might also be able to tap into her as an ally to keeping your job. I honestly suspect that she will lean more towards the first statement - considering that despite the fact she pulled you aside and expressed her feelings, at which point you (sincerely?) apologized (and she accepted?), she still took the step of documenting and reporting the incident.

Furthermore, I am surprised that you were not given notice of this investigation - nor were you allowed to represent yourself at the panel where your fate was discussed. Unless, they only consider the first talk with your Supervisor (where you were fuzzy on your details - ouch) enough of a "trial".

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Feminazi. The irony of that portmanteau always amuses me.

As far as fabricated words go, Feminazi is always an amusing one. I wish I could find one for that particular ilk of women that suited them well enough and still maintained a humourous vibe... but, until then I'm stuck with that.

And... is it bad that I read that and heard in my head, "Pour my tea"?

a-g

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Hey bud, just checking in while the baby is asleep:p Lesson number one in any professional/semi - professional setting. No matter how angry another person you work with/around might make you, you bite your tongue. File their lack of professionalism away in your mind(I hardly ever would push such issues to their full extent. I have very thick skin from years in business;) ) But NEVER, EVER let an immature/unprofessional side of you out at work or a similar place. In fact it might be best to just forget that side of you altogether. In today's touchy feely world it is just to easy to get yourself into trouble. You are actually pretty lucky that your resignation is all that a soundbyte like that is costing you, seriously man. Always be polite and diplomatic in any public setting and your persona can help you just as much as the opposite can hurt you. I am sorry that I have no consoling advice for your current situation, but hopefully you have learned one of the most important lessons of a professional America.

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