A Poet's Blade Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Thoughts? I will save mine for a bit later, but I will say I am very happy Brock Lesnar won. True athlete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Booooooo. Couture is the man... Lesnar won legit, but still... Booooooo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyoki Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Brock Lesnar is a champ. It's good to see him kick some butt in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iusedtobesomebody Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Once he knocked him down, the pain started to rain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRins Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Now we can all see why it is just a bad idea to take a year off to argue with Dana White, then face an elite athlete (I'm not completely ready to call Brock a elite fighter...he lacks the multi-faceted attack of other elite fighters.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrek Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Couture is Couture is Couture. But Lesner has meals bigger than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouselessRogue Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 Lesnar is a big strong dude. It's hard for people to handle. But... Noguera will beat Mir on the 27th. He is the better fighter. Noguera will then show Lesnar the difference between being a big brawler and a true all around fighter. I predict Noguera submitting Lesnar quickly and efficiently to unify the titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconz Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 I hate to sound like a hater... but i was sooooooooo disgusted. Brock is a true athlete... i wont hate on him for that... but im salty cuz one, he aint deserve a title shot against Capn America... two it shows just how anemic the heavyweight division in the UFC really is... three it smells like a setup. I mean... everyone knowns that Dana overpaid Lesnar to come in and be the savior of the Heavyweight division... and thats a slap in the face to the guys who were already there puttin in the work (Sylvia, Arlovski, Gonzaga, Werdum)... but whatever... good for Lesnar... i wont hate on his hustle of White. I think that his first UFC match against Mir was supposed to be a setup too... Dana thought that Lesnar would beat the crap out of Mir who had been out of action for so long... and Lesnar was doin a good job of that until "Oh yeah... this MMA... i have to worry about someone grabbin a hold of my scrawny chicken legs and tapping me out". Yeah Lesnar beat Herring.. and? I didnt know Herring was the gatekeeper to the number 1 contender spot... why not put him against Gonzaga for the #1 contender spot? Oh yeah... thats right... Dana White wants to preserve the hype-machine that is Brock Lesnar... the WWE wasnt the only one who believed that Lesnar was "the next big thing" and deserving of a push... *rolls eyes* Lesnar beat Capn fair and square tho.. but was anyone really impressed? I think Minautoro is gunna beat Mir and then sub Lesnar in the 1st round.. [edit] when i say setup... i dont mean to say that the outcome was rigged... more like Dana was tryin to give him a push... __________________ Iconz - Dreams of a day when we will see some of the Affliction Heavyweights fight some of the UFC guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Poet's Blade Posted November 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 A TON of fans wanted to see Lesnar vs Couture. The fans got what they wanted from Dana White. A lot of fighters got a title chance at their 4th fight in the sport, including Couture. Brock is an amazing athlete, I agree with Krins that he has work to do, but he is the champ and if he not deserving he will lose it. I wouldn't go as far as to call him a hype machine. Now Kimbo Slice, yes, he is a hype machine. Lesnar is a true athlete and won because he was the better fighter that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRins Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 Kimbo was overhyped. A street brawler with no background in any of the traditional styles of MMA. Brock Lesnar was a real standout in collegiate wrestling...is he getting a borderline insane amount of face time? Yeah. Does he put on a pretty exciting fight? Yep. You can only beat the person across from you. Dana made the match, and Lesnar beat his man. I'm of the opinion that Minotauro has a superior BJJ game...and a better chin should that actually come into play in what I expect to be a grappling demonstration versus Mir. Regarding the unification fight... Lesnar can end a fight at any given moment with those sledgehammers he lugs around at the end of his wrists. Can Minotauro take him down? Will Lesnar make the cardinal sin of a wrestler against a primarily BJJ fighter and try to pound him out? This is why we watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delfytheelfy Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 I think the fact that brock got the fight over the older MMA guys is while "unfair" in a way, it was a smart move by Mrs White. You do whats best for EVERYONE, and when the fans want to see a fight, your inclined to give it to them. Why? Because if the fans are not seeing what they want, they dont watch... then NOONE gets a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBwillie Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I hate to sound like a hater... but i was sooooooooo disgusted. Brock is a true athlete... i wont hate on him for that... but im salty cuz one, he aint deserve a title shot against Capn America... two it shows just how anemic the heavyweight division in the UFC really is... three it smells like a setup. I mean... everyone knowns that Dana overpaid Lesnar to come in and be the savior of the Heavyweight division... and thats a slap in the face to the guys who were already there puttin in the work (Sylvia, Arlovski, Gonzaga, Werdum)... but whatever... good for Lesnar... i wont hate on his hustle of White. I think that his first UFC match against Mir was supposed to be a setup too... Dana thought that Lesnar would beat the crap out of Mir who had been out of action for so long... and Lesnar was doin a good job of that until "Oh yeah... this MMA... i have to worry about someone grabbin a hold of my scrawny chicken legs and tapping me out". Yeah Lesnar beat Herring.. and? I didnt know Herring was the gatekeeper to the number 1 contender spot... why not put him against Gonzaga for the #1 contender spot? Oh yeah... thats right... Dana White wants to preserve the hype-machine that is Brock Lesnar... the WWE wasnt the only one who believed that Lesnar was "the next big thing" and deserving of a push... *rolls eyes* Lesnar beat Capn fair and square tho.. but was anyone really impressed? I think Minautoro is gunna beat Mir and then sub Lesnar in the 1st round.. [edit] when i say setup... i dont mean to say that the outcome was rigged... more like Dana was tryin to give him a push... __________________ Iconz - Dreams of a day when we will see some of the Affliction Heavyweights fight some of the UFC guys... Kudos! Well said. Lesnar LOST to Mir, who is past his prime, and couldn't finish Heath Herring, the resilient cowboy from Texas. He has yet to impress me, really. Now he's defeated a 45 year old man who, before the fight, had a subpar 16-8 record. I absolutely detest Lesnar for many reasons. Among them, he is a terrible speaker. I can't stand to sit through the ten second interviews where the fighters speak before their fights when he is the speaker. He can't pronounce a three-letter last name. MIR! It's MIR! Not Mur! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyeSeeU Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 All I am going to say is this. Brock Lesnar is a scary dude. To be that big and that quick is just insanity. Yeah he might loose and be submitted soon, however once he gets a good year of some "real" BJJ and MMA in him he will revamp his division. Remember folks Brock was the NCAA wrestling champion in 2000 and runner-up in 1999, with a record of 106-5. THE DUDE KNOWS HOW TO WIN!!! I know for a fact you don't win that being "PUSHED" or having things "SET-UP". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Poet's Blade Posted November 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 What I find upsetting is everyone seems to think he isn't deserving of a title shot. Why? Because its his 4th fight? Andre Pederneiras(2nd fight) vs Pat Miletich Randy Couture(4th fight) vs Maurice Smith BJ Penn(4th fight) vs Jens Pulver Kevin Jackson(4th fight) vs Frank Shamrock Just a few fighters, all very talented, that had an early title shot. Because a man can't speak very well is no reason to hate. I guarantee that none of us can properly pronounce every word and name we hear. Besides his difficulty in pronouncing Mir, why else is he hated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cephirus Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 I am a bit unsure why his fight against Couture is "unfair". From my perspective, I felt that it was going to be a very close match, hanging on a mistake, that allows for an opening that would end it. And that is precisely what happened. You don't have to like Lesner, however, bad-mouthing him really proves nothing. Does he perhaps see some extra money because he brings in a larger crowd, your damn right. If I were Dana White, I would do the same thing. More viewers=more money. While I have only watched a few UFC fights, I was definitely drawn to that fight, because of Brock Lesner, and the hype around the fight. In my opinion, it was very well orchestrated, and in the end, it was an enjoyable fight. Will Lesner perhaps loose to someone that is more well-rounded and focusing on Lesner's weakness, quite possibly. However, do keep in mind, Lesner is an experienced combatant, I do not think he is spending his time training on the same regiment that he would have been while wrestling. Obviously he has areas of weakness he needs to improve, if he wants to stay the champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 Watch Anderson Silva get FAT, -I'm talking obese- and take Lesnar's title. He could do it, with ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconz Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 I call bullshhhhhyat on the "fans wanted to see it" arguement... a ton of fans wanted to see Kimbo vs Lidell too... so what? The Kimbo vs CauliflowerEarDude drew in an unprecedented amount of viewers... so there is a large market interested in Kimbo... but this whole thing isnt even really about what viewers want to see. Its funny how "the fans want to see it!" argument only works for Dana White... cuz when they asked about how fans want to see Kimbo fight.. he just blew it off (and rightly so IMO... Kimbo hadnt done anything to earn a fight against Lidell). The same way Lesnar brought in the Wrastlin' crowd.. is the same way Kimbo brought in a youtube/streetbrawlin crowd (basically peeps who might not have watched an MMA fight before) . Mrs. White (haha) didnt see it that way though and had nothing but contempt for EliteXC... going as far as saying "Kimbo isnt an athelete" (..its funny how Kimbo has never said ONE NEGATIVE THING ABOUT DANA WHITE! 'Sall good tho, karma has a funny way of workin things out.) The way i see it is that EliteXC and UFC did the same thing that most promotions (yes.. they are a fighting PROMOTION) do. They try to get the most marketable dude (or dudette in the case of Gina Carano) to be the 'face' of their organization... a popular champion brings you more money. EliteXC's gamble on Kimbo didnt pay off (for tons of reasons outside of Kimbos inexperience) meanwhile Dana's gamble on Lesnar being the 'savior of the UFC Heavyweight' division IS payin off (bare minimum were talkin about it). You wanna say Couture got a title shot in his fourth fight in the sport... yeah... thats true... but he was also undefeated leading up to that 4th fight. Come to think of it.. lets look at those guys you mentioned PoetsBlade. Andre was a sacrificial lamb that they brought to Miletich... disagree? Dude only fought 4 times.... in his whole career... Randy was undefeated in the UFC and he finished his 1st 3 fights in under 10 mins... w/ a win over a clear contender in Vitor Belfort (4-0) who had knocked out all of his previous opponents in under 2 mins... BJ Penn was undefeated (3-0) in the UFC and he finished his 1st 3 fights by some form of knockout... including Caol Uno (had just fought Jens for the belt 2 matches earlier) and Din Thomas (13-1 at the time... and one of those victories was over Jens)... who were both top contenders in 2001 Kevin Jackson was undefeated (3-0) at the time... won the UFC 14 tourney for his weightclass.. and finished his first 3 fights w/ a submission in under 2 mins. So umm... we see a pattern? Cuz I do... and they are all things Lesnar didnt do. Lesnar wasnt undefeated... Lesnar aint beat a top contender (Youre tellin me HEATH F'N HERRING is a viable number one contender???? Over Werdum AND Gonzaga????)... Lesnar finished ONE fight against a virtually unknown (Min Soo Kim.. really?). All in all... Lesnar's a legit fighter and an athelete... but not a number one contender. Now i think ive explained to you usin your examples why i think Lesnar was undeserving...So other than being "a true athlete" why dont you explain to me why he deserved a title shot? __________________ Iconz - Still thinks Affliction is where the real heavyweights are at right now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Iconz knows his history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRins Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Iconz...you can say he was undeserving of the title shot, but you can't say he isn't a deserving champion. He won didn't he? Are you going to say the Giants were the Super Bowl champs last year because they weren't the number 1 seed in the NFC? Are you going to say that the TB Rays didn't deserve to be in the World Series because they have only won their division once? Pretty much what I am saying is: They were there, they held up the belt, they rang the bell, Brock won...deserving and undeserving left the conversation at around...weigh-ins or even earlier when they signed the fight contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconz Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 I guess that depends on what your definition of a deserving champion is... if a deserving champion is just someone who beat the champ... then yeah... no doubt about it... Brock slugged Capn real good and then hammerfisted him into oblivion. Your analogy w/ the Giants is dead wrong and doesnt apply to Lesnar... because the Giants beat everyone in the playoffs to get to the Superbowl (hell... they almost beat the Patriots durin the regular season... and IMO their loss to the Pats in the regular season was the fluke... NOT their superbowl win). They earned their shot at Pats... dont confuse underdog w/ underdeserving... A better analogy would be if the Green Bay Packers went to the Superbowl that year and beat the Pats... id still be happy cuz i hate the Pats... but the Packers lost in the NFC championship game... how is it possible that they would get a Superbowl shot? Thats what im sayin! Lesnar is the Green Bay Packers... and after losing in the NFC championships... he somehow ended up in the Superbowl... . Givin him the opportunity didnt win him the fight... he won the fight fair n square... but damn it there were other guys more deserving of that opportunity... who EARNED that opportunity... and this reeks of a "push". __________________ Iconz - In my mind Minotauro is the champ until he loses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRins Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 You're leaving out the part that Mir caught a desperation knee bar. Brock dominated every second of that fight except the last couple. Gonzaga single shining moment was high kicking Cro Cop...an over-the-hill, hasn't won a fight since Cro Cop. Your little Affliction signature has essentially robbed you of all credibility in my opinion. Reality is reality...woulda coulda and shoulda live somewhere I like to call "You best get up over it". Our only version of common ground...Minotauro definately might beat Brock. He is twice the fighter Mir is. As a fighter (well...semi-fighter, the knee is still on the mend but almost back.) a loss is never just a loss. There is an embarrassing the judges actually considered scoring your best round 10 to -3 for the other guy. And a you were dominating literally everything until you got caught. The last one you can come back from, particularly when your next two opponents (Heath Herring isn't legit in your world? He has fought in the biggest promotions in both the US and Japan and earned huge chipstacks.) are very talented and barely even graze you while you go all Grape Ape on their face. Think then speak...history is history, perception is reality, and the UFC isn't the MMA major leagues because Dana is the idiot you make him out to be. Little bonus for you so I can quote some history too: Herring almost kicked Minotauro's head off in the first round. Remember that night? The night Minotauro was 4/5ths out and Herring didn't basically sit on him and drop a hammerfist or two for the stoppage. The night the ref should have stopped the fight when Minotauro didn't immediately get to his feet when Herring backed away and motioned for him to get up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Poet's Blade Posted November 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 As far as Gabriel Gonzaga and Fabricio Werdum go, they both lost their fights recently. Gonzaga was TKO'd by Werdum and Werdum by Santos. Now, Lesnar won his MMA debut, but lost his UFC debut. Assuming he won his UFC debut would he turn out to be another Anderson Silva and given a title shot after his first win in the Octagon? Well, yeah. He did. He beat Herring and destroyed Couture. I have no hate for the Natural, but it seems like you, Iconz, are living more in hate of Lesnar because he is better than Couture and blowing this title shot out of proportion because your guy lost. Minotauro will face Mir, the winner of that fight will face Lesnar for the title. Assuming Minotauro wins(many think he will, but hey, everyone thought that about Couture) he will fight Lesnar and win or maybe lose. What I find upsetting is Couture left. On October 11, 2007 Randy Couture decided to quit the UFC. The famed and "oh so loved" Couture left the UFC and STILL had the title for a year. How is that fair? If you are rooting so hard for those not given a shot, why not cry about this? The reason he was kept as a title holder was not only because of his contract, but because there wasn't any other fighter deserving at the time. Brock Lesnar then signs and they formulate a plan for a 4-man tournament for the undisputed, undefeated, heavy weight championship of the world. Minotauro will have his shot. Mir will have his shot. Lesnar had his shot and won. Should Minotauro defeat Mir and then Lesnar defeat Minotauro in a similar fashion to his victory over Couture, will we have another one of these threads? Would this "hate Lesnar" even be a factor if he lost against Couture? Probably not, but people love to hate other people. Its fun and gossip is fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconz Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Desperation? Thats so direspectful... Mir almost had 3 different submissions on Lesnar... this is MMA... it only takes a split second to get subbed. You said in your first match you were whippin some dude up.. tried to drop a fist on him... missed broke your knuckle... and for that second that your hand was hanging there he subbed you. Thats all it takes.. a split second for someone who is skilled to do it... im not goin to call Mirs kneebar a "desperation" knee bar any more than ima call Lesnar's right hand on Randy a "lucky clip shot"... its not a good point to make in MMA. Yo... dont put words in my mouth to make a (bad) point... i really dont appreciate that... cuz i never said Herring wasnt a legit fighter. What i said was that he wasnt a number one contender or the gateway to the number one contender spot... then i explained who i thought was more deserving and why. Krins this is the second time ive "lost credibility" in your book... i thought you would have got it by now that i dont care what credibility you give me... i didnt know you were on the National MMA Opinions Accredation Board... but i do have an informed opinion backed by substance.... and that you cant take away from me... but feel free to disagree. Its just better to attack my points than to attack me homie... Ive thought out what i was goin to say... and ive explained my points... whos not speakin before they think? What is wrong w/ the upstart Affliction company? They have some interesting heavyweights fighting in their promotion... Fedor, Arlovski, Sylvia, Barnett, Rothwell... UFC is only now getting some intersting heavyweights in the ring fighting. As to Minotauro vs Herring... umm i think beating someone 3 times (hat trick!) in the past 6 years (2001 Unanimaous Decision, 2004 Subbed, 2007 Unanimous Decision) makes it clear that you are the better fighter... but feel free to disagree w/ me. Dana isnt an idiot.. hes an arrogant prick who has done an amazing job w/ the UFC.. but has mismanaged some of his biggest talents. (im startin to think people read what i say and then interpret it however they want w/out looking at what i say... meh..) PoetsBlade...Gabriel Gonzaga won his last two fights... and before that he lost to Couture and Werdum... but lets look at the timeframe where Lesnar was given the shot against Couture.. sep 2008 the fight was announced? (im not too sure when it was officially announced) Werdum was coming off a 3-1 record having beaten lil Emelianenko, Gonzaga and Vera... and losing to Arlovski (who is about to fight the best HW in the world). Lesnar was coming off of 2 fights.. losing to Mir and beating some unknown... why wasnt Werdum given the fight? You cant look at Werdum losing to dos Santos b/c that happened after the Lesnar-Couture fight was announced... at the time Werdum had a more impressive record and was more deserving of a shot. Heres how Sherdog saw the top Heavyweights at the time in August (yeah yeah... Sherdog isnt THE authority on MMA... they just have opinions... i disagree w/ their rankings sometimes... but they are never obscenely off the mark w/ the people who are ranked). "Destroyed Couture" is a bit strong. Randy put up a hell of a better fight than Herring... Capn made him bleed... and worked him a bit. He caught Couture slippin and finished him off... but "destroyed"? nah... he destroyed Herring... he destroyed Min Soo Kim... but he didnt destroy Couture. Peep what I said about Lesnar. Never once have i said i hated Lesnar... once again... puttin words into my mouth to make a point. The only criticism i have ever had about Lesnar was that he was not deservin of the shot (which neither of you have even bothered to respond to) and was given the opportunity over other dudes who had put in the work... i understood WHY he was given the shot (Lesnar draws in viewers... whether they are head over heels in love w/ him or they dont like him.. its a smart marketing ploy) ... i just thought it made Dana a pure hypocrite b/c its like he was determined to make him the star and savior of the heavyweight division (from the amt he paid him in his first lost, to giving him the shot) while talkin crazy amts of ish about other organizations who do the same thing. Minotauro might lose to Lesnar.. nothing in MMA shocks me that much anymore. Hell... i thought Lesnar was going to beat Mir and that didnt happen. Randy quit the UFC for similar reasons to Tito and some of the heavyweight guys who left... Dana is an arrogant prick who doesnt take care of his talent. Yeah i didnt think its fair that Couture was still considered the champion... sounds like it was an ego thing between him and Dana to see whos dingaling was bigger (Hey Randy... its kinda hard to fight a contract... you know... being legally binding and all...). Thats why i said as far as i was concerned Minotauro is the champion... i would say he was certainly deserving. The guy who i think i feel even more for is Tim Sylvia... Randy comes out of retirement to take his belt (they were training partners before)... thats such a douchebag move on Capn Americas part lol. Let me answer your questions. If Lesnar beats the winner of Minotauro/Mir then he is champion period. Win or lose against Couture... it still would have been a factor for me b/c he wasnt deserving of the shot. I made two points this whole time... Lesnar was not deserving of the title shot ... the Heavyweight division in the UFC was (yeah WAS) lookin real anemic mostly due to mismanagement on Dana's part... but now w/ guys like Santos(where did he come from?).. Gonzaga.. Werdum.. Mir.. Randy.. Minotauro.. its really getting exciting again... and that makes me happy as a fan of MMA. Now ive answered all of your questions and shown why i disagree using opinions and facts.. none of you guys whove disagreed w/ me answered my question why Lesnar deserved the shot in the first place.. but whatever... __________________ Iconz - It is what it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Poet's Blade Posted November 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 You feel Lesnar wasn't deserving of a title shot, I first thought the same, but after a little reading and research, I came to the conclusion that no one else really did either. To bring up another fighter, again, Anderson Silva. 2nd fight in UFC was a title shot. I'm sure a lot of of other middle weights were top contenders for the belt. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 I dunno man. I think it's how impressive Silva was that brought him the opportunity. I personally think it might have been necessary to walk through a few more opponents before Franklin, but what might have impressed was the ease with which he destroyed Chris Leben, who was on a 5 fight win streak. Continuing on, he's defended his belt like... 5 times (just a guess, some history master can correct me) with brutal victories over everyone. He's badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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