Your Bane, My Bane...

[Pali]

Thief > Ninja

Then I must've been fighting some really dumb thieves, because I have never lost to a thief with a ninja who had any more than a pair of commoner's longswords (had a blast constantly attempting to assassinate with only 6 hitroll... they finally pinned me down after my fifth attempt failed).

[Mindflayer]

Then I must've been fighting some really dumb thieves

Bingo

[Pali]

I will admit, those fights WERE all before the change to caltraps that it doesn't hit flying opponents... still, I just don't see a thief being ninja bane. Ninja EQUAL, perhaps... but bane? Hardly. First, if we're assuming the thief is smart enough to negate all the ninja skills he can, we must make the reverse assumption also... which pulls traps out of the mix, as nobody fights a thief in a playground they've had time to set up (push then vanish also would allow safe disengagement from a trapped room anyways). Ninjas also get throw, which equals the thief skill. Ninjas have grapple, which can lag a flying thief (as well as stopping them from throwing while still doing extra damage), and let us not forget how lotus scourge or shadow arts could alter the fight in the ninja's favor as well.

Thieves definitely give ninjas more trouble than many classes, you will find no argument from me there. But bane? No. A bane is a class that will routinely stomp you if all things are equal, and I'd say a thief/ninja fight is too close for that.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

As a (granted qrace) thief back when, I never lost to a ninja. But I can see why with certain changes, it would be slightly more difficult to have that success now.

[Mindflayer]

Thieves still have quite an edge over a ninja in my opinion. Steal/pry is key for crippling an enemy. With a successful blackjack and pry/stolen backpacks, glimmering staff, etc the ninja will find themselves at quite the disadvantage.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Heh, never used blackjack/backstab/pry/plant/steal.

[Mindflayer]

Then you played a warrior that could backstab, sneak and hide

[f0xx]

A smart thief can beat anything.

A smart ninja can beat anything except a smart thief.

Not counting qclasses/qraces.

[delfytheelfy]

I NEVER had problems with thieves on my ninja. I mean I didn't kill them, but thats because I suck at pk. But they couldn't kill me either.

[Pali]

Thieves still have quite an edge over a ninja in my opinion. Steal/pry is key for crippling an enemy. With a successful blackjack and pry/stolen backpacks' date=' glimmering staff, etc the ninja will find themselves at quite the disadvantage.[/quote']

With a successful strangle and dust, smoke, and lagging skills, the thief will find himself at quite the disadvantage too.

[Mindflayer]

A smart thief won't get strangled.

[tassinvegeta]

Here's my two cents Tassinvegeta. A blademaster cannot predict a haymaker' date=' this alone is huge. Blademasters aren't using shields to block a haymaker, nor do they don't have a protective shield spell to block a haymaker. The races that can join the blademaster's guild are tiny to medium in size. With some [b']luck and skill, you can time a haymaker and hope to knock down deathweaver. If they don't flee first, eat your venom sack and bodyslam, game over. Wield a mace and shield-once you have the advantage, dual maces. From my berserking experience those put quite the beating on a blademaster. Toss in weapon cleave for extra spice.

True but the berserker is relying on that single skill for victory. If you were that blademaster do you think you would fall prey to the haymaker? I'm aware of both of our experiences as berserkers. But it seems they are alot different still. Some toughest fights were against blademasters as a berserker. Haymaker wouldn't connect as often as I'd like and if it did it didn't seem to drop the key spells I needed to overpower them in melee. In the battles against them that I remember I won it was due to other tactics. Haha I even remember catching a non-pinnacled dwarf blademaster afk. I was a fire zerk dual wielding vuln weapons and I still nearly lost. Haymakers were landing and dropping things too, and since I raged I couldn't flee. That was very embarrassing. Hmm now that I think about it, I remember hearing you say their was a knight blademaster that gave your troll zerk a very tough time also. What happened there?

[Guest emp_newb]

it was the halfling blademaster? arguably one of the strongest blademaster? With a that does . And probably had mastery in his race.

[L-A]

Berserkers bane can be Clerics. Unless it's a Dwarven.

Calm takes rage, then you just Ray him to a pulp while he keeps missing skills.

http://www.theforsakenlands.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13366

How's that working out for you?

L-A

[L-A]

True but the berserker is relying on that single skill for victory. If you were that blademaster do you think you would fall prey to the haymaker? I'm aware of both of our experiences as berserkers. But it seems they are alot different still. Some toughest fights were against blademasters as a berserker. Haymaker wouldn't connect as often as I'd like and if it did it didn't seem to drop the key spells I needed to overpower them in melee. In the battles against them that I remember I won it was due to other tactics. Haha I even remember catching a non-pinnacled dwarf blademaster afk. I was a fire zerk dual wielding vuln weapons and I still nearly lost. Haymakers were landing and dropping things too' date=' and since I raged I couldn't flee. That was very embarrassing. Hmm now that I think about it, I remember hearing you say their was a knight blademaster that gave your troll zerk a very tough time also. What happened there?[/quote']

Assuming equal equipment I'd back the zerk - but its all going to come down to how you use the skills.

Haymaker should be used right after your opponent uses a skill - they lag and you have a change to rip off sanc. Even one round with a raged zerk could cost your dearly enough you can't recover and have to run.

If the blademaster wants to stop this, they either use 1 round lag skills and run when sanc goes (at which you point we chase and so on) or don't use skills and bet on putting sanc backup if haymakered THEN using a skill in the zerks lag.

The zerk will then sit there and see if they can outmelee you. If they need to rage they can. If the zerk can outmelee you they can dictate as you have to fear haymaker/loss of sanc on every command you enter OR sit there while they outmelee and kill you.

If the zerk cannot out melee you then they will probably either rage (if they haven't) or go for their skills: haymaker and weaponcleave to regain the advantage.

L-A

[Mudder]

If there was a Zerk vs BLM fight and the Zerk raged... Oh god, I would LOVE to be the BLM. Rage = autoattack.

Flee. Return. Let the Zerk auto-attack. Twin counter. Rinse and repeat.

[Guest emp_newb]

any blm who relies on autoattack is either A) Newb to blms or Newb to blms. Predict/vigil/twin counter is great yes, but vs a giant(most typical zerk races are giants) your gonna want to use crit strikes.

[tassinvegeta]

Assuming equal equipment I'd back the zerk - but its all going to come down to how you use the skills.

Haymaker should be used right after your opponent uses a skill - they lag and you have a change to rip off sanc. Even one round with a raged zerk could cost your dearly enough you can't recover and have to run.

If the blademaster wants to stop this, they either use 1 round lag skills and run when sanc goes (at which you point we chase and so on) or don't use skills and bet on putting sanc backup if haymakered THEN using a skill in the zerks lag.

The zerk will then sit there and see if they can outmelee you. If they need to rage they can. If the zerk can outmelee you they can dictate as you have to fear haymaker/loss of sanc on every command you enter OR sit there while they outmelee and kill you.

If the zerk cannot out melee you then they will probably either rage (if they haven't) or go for their skills: haymaker and weaponcleave to regain the advantage.

L-A

All sounds great on paper. But have you experiences with a successful char on either side of the playing field? I'd like to hear about them.

[Guest emp_newb]

Im not sure how many zerks you have played Tassin, I know of one I think. I have played several and tend to side more with L-A. zerk is about waiting to dro pthat nuke til you cannot recover, or get out of the way.

[Pali]

A smart thief won't get strangled.

Nor will a smart ninja be blackjacked. Which is exactly my point... if both are smart, both can counter many of the other's skills, and what's left leaves them pretty even.

[tassinvegeta]

Nor will a smart ninja be blackjacked. Which is exactly my point... if both are smart' date=' both can counter many of the other's skills, and what's left leaves them pretty even.[/quote']

I can see a smart ninja getting blackjacked due to antimagic. A ninja on the other hand doesn't have a way to stop those poison brews. But if you look at it that way the ninja has to be alot more patient to not get hit by those traps so he'll resort to studying and retreating. The smart thief will have to take it to him if he doesn't want to get studied. However if the ninja got that full study he'd eventually will have to go after the thief to get the assassinate putting the thief at the advantage again. Its a tricky battle and I'm sure someone would make a mistake long before this type of scenario is followed through.

[tassinvegeta]

Im not sure how many zerks you have played Tassin' date=' I know of one I think. I have played several and tend to side more with L-A. zerk is about waiting to drop that nuke til you cannot recover, or get out of the way.[/quote']

I agree with you. I'm just saying its not that easy and clearcut as some of you make it sound. If you consider zerk vs bmg , than I'd say that strategy is much more textbook and easier to pull off. But these are just my personal experiences I'd love to hear anyone elses.

[Twinblades713]

Flee. Return. Let the Zerk auto-attack. Twin counter. Rinse and repeat.

You know I invented the Twin Counter.

[Pali]

I can see a smart ninja getting blackjacked due to antimagic.

Yes, and I can see a smart thief getting bashlocked by the first warrior/zerk wandering by and seeing a thief in the open becaue he's poisoned.

[Mindflayer]

True but the berserker is relying on that single skill for victory. I remember hearing you say their was a knight blademaster that gave your troll zerk a very tough time also. What happened there?

When something works you use it.. think Lamah and the charge skill.

Yes, I was still in the learning process about berserkers on FL.. my mistake was constantly using my chaos blade (polearm) against a blademaster (a weapon they know quite well). Ask Dagizon how much Thorghull improved!