Hit Roll / Damage Roll

[delfytheelfy]

How Much is to much, and where is that "balanced" line?

[Guest emp_newb]

actually, I have expiremented over several chars, and reached the conclusion that damage roll MAY play a small effect, the avg damage of a weapon and your hit roll are the determining factors, as a matter of fact my forum signature was with a feral warrior at a roughly a 55/25 hit dam. So unless they have tweaked dam roll, I do not even use it.

[killalou]

dam roll does have I use..but from what i have experienced its more useful for the "stronger" races. My last character which was a werebeast had 21 str and it played a small part by helping me sometimes get a higher damage adjective on avg with a damroll of 50+.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

i usually shoot for a balance, say 40/40, unless it's a specific case i.e my syndi ninja had 70 hitroll, Vylan had 60 damroll. it's really up to how you feel it will help you.

[EyeSeeU]

I aim to go higher hitroll and sacrifice damroll because of the fact that yeah alright you have a super high damroll but if your not hitting the person you are fighting often what good is a couple very hard attacks? I like more attacks, and I feel with the right weapons more attacks with those weapons are better then less attacks hitting harder.

[WagesofSin]

I've been wondering about this myself. I was thinking about just stacking damroll since it is so much easier to get and in much larger amounts. As a melee, you are using a weapon they don't know so you would be hitting them more often, reducing the need for super high hitroll. Has anyone tried this out?

[mya]

"the avg damage of a weapon"

That is the main thing for me to.

Dam roll i let fluctuate in the 30 - 25 range.

With Hitroll always higher than Damroll to prevent misses.

For example i noticed that a Cleric will need more Hitroll to overcome AC than a pure meele.

[Celerity]

depends what class you are and what class you are fighting...

hitroll becomes more important the less weapons you know and the more defenses your opponent has

a warrior fighting a necro needs nearly zero hitroll

a necro fighting a warrior (in melee) would need a relatively high hitroll

40 is generally good enough, 50plus for suited melees...remember that you get serious diminishing returns as your hitroll goes over 50

I go for higher profs or align/condition bonuses over pure hitroll usually, since they don't take eq slots

for most classes, weapons types have different bonuses to number of attacks, which is the the most important factor for me...choose the fastest weapon they don't know with the highest avg dam...(not being able to get those condition bonuses (ex. against blind fighting...) you need a higher hitroll)

edit: classes or combos that specialize in one weapon type (dk,nexus) should invest a very high hitroll

[myrek]

wow! i'm happy if I get to 30/30.

[Murat]

im with ya Myrek

[mya]

Exelent post Celerity.

Just two things i disagree.

-"you get serious diminishing returns as your hitroll goes over 50"

This is supposed to happen, but i think it does not happens.

-"weapons types have different bonuses to number of attacks"

I have never seen anything to support this. In fact from my experience weapons have zero effect on number of attacks.

To expand on the proficiencies thing. Your % Knowledge of a weapon affects both your chance to hit with it and your Damage output. Anyone who trains from 1 prac will notice it.

Also most people tend to increase Hitrolls and tend to forget another thing.

Bless arms. It aids with so many things that is amazing most never think about it.

[f0xx]

Bless arms. It aids with so many things that is amazing most never think about it.

And they are?

[mya]

'BLESS ARMS'

syntax: commune 'bless arms'

A cleric may seek the aid of their god to bless an object that the cleric

holds dear to their arsenal. Thus blessed object is not only easier and

more effective in combat but also has powers beneficial to the cleric.

- Since no one ever says it, i am not going to. Use search function.

[L-A]

Exelent post Celerity.

Just two things i disagree.

-"you get serious diminishing returns as your hitroll goes over 50"

This is supposed to happen, but i think it does not happens.

-"weapons types have different bonuses to number of attacks"

I have never seen anything to support this. In fact from my experience weapons have zero effect on number of attacks.

1) Dimishing returns are very real. 50 isn't the breakpoint though (which is why you aren't seeing it....)

2) Certain weapon attributes DO affect the number of attacks you get. This is sort of obvious and can be tested.

L-A

[Guest emp_newb]

Play a warrior, wield a whip attack someone, then wield a polearm. Tell me you do not see a change.

[Aulian]

1) Dimishing returns are very real. 50 isn't the breakpoint though (which is why you aren't seeing it....)

2) Certain weapon attributes DO affect the number of attacks you get. This is sort of obvious and can be tested.

L-A

L-A is once again on the right track, as always.

And hitroll and damroll give diminishing returns after certain points. I think of it on a "tier" system. If you ever want to test this, play a monk.

[mya]

Did a small "test"

Practice Whip + Shield vs practice Polearm.

100% wep prof's. Third attack class.

Whip

Single attack: 16

Double attack: 33

Triple attack: 4

Total rounds: 53

Polearm

Single attack: 10

Double attack: 28

Triple attack: 7

Total rounds: 45

Average attacks per round:

Whip: 1.77

Polearm: 1.93

Values gathered alternating Whip with Polearms in 6 batchs.

All attacks on same low level mob type. 6 mobs used.

mob1 Whip, mob2 Polearm, mob3 Whip, mob4 polearm, mob5 whip, mob6 polearm.

First round values ignored due to double round thing.

Last round values ignored due to killing preventing an attack.

Conclusions:

- No indication of practice whip giving more attacks than a practice polearm.

- Polearm attained greater average attacks per round than Whip.

Discusion/Improvement.

Sample/Population has more than 30 rounds, enough for statistical analyzes.

100 rounds would be better. 1000 ever more.

A hypotheses statistical test should be performed to check if they are ruled by the same mechanism. (My statistic knowledge is not good enough to apply such a test. Nor can i say what is the test type. You can thank that to me sleeping during my statistical classes. )

[KRins]

30 isn't even close to enough rounds for a true analysis. Also, out of pure curiosity and ignorance of the code, does two handed vs one handed affect the number of attacks?

[Pali]

If second/third attack were also not at 100%, they'd heavily influence the statistics gathering you did there Mya... they're currently uncontrolled variables and you don't know how they're playing into it.

[f0xx]

If second/third attack were also not at 100%' date=' they'd heavily influence the statistics gathering you did there Mya... they're currently uncontrolled variables and you don't know how they're playing into it.[/quote']

I don't believe she would posted this if the char didn't have mastered second and third attack. I could be wrong?

[mya]

Second and third attack % would affect both weapons the same way.

I think second was mastered, and third 92%.

I would be more worried with weapon level/weight.

Trust me Pali, i have experience in experimental work and discrete data gathering. We are not talking about a lowbie character, but a PK ready pinnacle.

The things is, the data contradicts established opinion so resistance to change was due to appear.

If anyone wishs to challenge my data, the best thing for them to do is to run their own experiment, and then post the data. This would benefit us all.

With that said, i find my data interesting. So i might run a whip vs mace on a Cleric.

[Calron]

Trust me Pali' date=' i have experience in experimental work and discrete data gathering.[/b'] We are not talking about a lowbie character, but a PK ready pinnacle.

The things is, the data contradicts established opinion so resistance to change was due to appear.

If anyone wishs to challenge my data, the best thing for them to do is to run their own experiment, and then post the data. This would benefit us all.

With that said, i find my data interesting. So i might run a whip vs mace on a Cleric.

First of all, 50 rounds is not nearly enough to show anything. That amount of rounds does not even begin to overcome luck, outliers, and statistical quirks. Second, even a basic middle/high school science lab would include at least 5 trial runs of any experiment. Lastly, I don't understand your data seeing as double/later attacks don't fire off unless the first attack is successful.

[delfytheelfy]

First of all' date=' 50 rounds is not nearly enough to show anything. That amount of rounds does not even begin to overcome luck, outliers, and statistical quirks. Second, even a basic middle/high school science lab would include at least 5 trial runs of any experiment. [b']Lastly, I don't understand your data seeing as double/later attacks don't fire off unless the first attack is successful.

Then how can I miss one attack and my other three still hit?

Just because a miss the first punch in a flurry doesn't mean I don't swing again.

[Mindflayer]

Mmm, diminishing returns. For quite a similar reason, you'll never see me rolling with a berserker of the devastation path.

(For reasons which I can't share here)

[Pali]

Second and third attack % would affect both weapons the same way.

It would only over an extremely long period (else, luck factors in too highly to make any judgements possible). Calron's absolutely right in saying that 50 rounds is FAR too few for statistical sampling... I've had plenty of pks that lasted longer than that.

I'm not really weighing in on the question of whether weapon selection does or doesn't affect things... I haven't played enough melees to really notice, especially not recently.