Early Cabal Entrance

[Iusedtobesomebody]

I mentioned this in another thread but I think it definately deserves it's own.

When I first started playing FL in early 1.0, I was an utter newb to MUDs. I played for a little bit on AR but was angered at being killed by level 30 DKs in Winter gear who rank-sat. I quit playing altogether until Myrek mentioned there was another one just like it started by two ex-players. I said, "What the heck? It can't be as bad as the one I tried before." I played around for a while, rolling an endless amount of characters searching for the one that would 'fit'. I finally settled on a human necromancer. Viri made me a kick-*** oowner staff for my desc, and I began to rank. I somehow stumbled to 32, and began to read about cabals. Cabal warfare back then was utterly ruthless, with full-loots and multi-killers at every corner. I applied for Savant without really knowing anything about the lands, equipment or the tactics and nuances of PK. Somehow Mircea had mercy on me, and inducted me despite my glaring apparent lack of experience (probably because he couldn't PK either).

Instantly, I had access to a plethora of knowledge and information. My learning curve drastically improved just for the simple fact I had a deep connection with my cabal mates. They knew the more I knew, the better off the cabal would be. I learned where equipment was, had my questions answered and soaked up all info they could give me. Being of a low rank, I had time to process this information, practice tactics and overall just improve as a player. That way, by the time I reached 50 I was prepared for what was to come (namely daily ***-kickings from Grishnak).

Had I been forced to reach 50 first (something I doubt would have happened if I did not have access to allies for ranking and information from my cabal mates), I would have been completely unprepared. I would have most likely deleted and quit playing. Did it make me a good player instantly? No. But it eased that initial bend of the learning curve.

I believe that if we are survive as a mud and gain new players who will stay, we need to bring back early cabal entrance. Especially with true mud newbies, much like I was. I don't think it would unbalance warfare and you could always limit the amount of CPs they gain until the reach 50 or what have you to make it work and work right.

Thoughts?

[Anume]

I've often inducted players pre 50. Most just keep dying and eventually delete, unfortunately.

Might be a little less rough in cabals like WM or Watcher, though I've seen the latest pre-50 Watcher inductee die an awful lot as well.

Many Imms still do it from time to time, though usually not in the 30s but rather in the 40s.

[myrek]

I agree with fem-nec, but I think everyone knows that. "The game starts at 50" means that 1-49 is boring and irrelevant.

[Nightmare_from_hell]

Nethanar was inducted into Knight at/or around rank 35 (after Psi'd of course). So it's not completely out of the question to be inducted pre-50.

Ranking from 42-50 was treacherous like always, but no more so than any other char ranking through that gauntlet. The ability for pre-50's to hide their affiliations helps with this tremendously. The problem with this is that if u are leading armies or are forced to defend your standard, you immediately remove such protection.

So what choices does a pre-50 char have then in a cabal? If the standard is attempted to be taken, and you are within the range of the assaulter, you are mandated to defend it. Sure, you can log out, but depending on which imm you are under, there will most likely be consequences if u are caught doing this often.

Also, you do get that networking, but the clan system already allows for such relations to prosper, so merely being inducted into the cabal would not further this any more than what the clan does.

So what are the real benefits a player gets from being caballed? New skills and spells? For the new player, I believe that these would not benefit them nearly as much as the vets because the new player still needs to get a hold of their own class without adding in more things for them to worry about.

Is it cool and feel good to be in a cabal pre-50 as a newbie, definitely! I remember my first 2 cabalee's, both pre-50, and neither one made it to 50. If you believe the philosophy of throwing the kid in the deep end to teach him/her to swim, then this would be a great route to go for the new player. But as we can all attest to, it's a harsh world even at 50 in a cabal.

Therefore, I believe that the clan system alleviates these problems by allowing newer players to converse/rp with the elders of the cabals as well as getting tips from them about items and pk'ing. By being part of the clan, it helps to harden their shells without being thrown to the dogs.

[Telufial]

Yeah, I remember this being done alot more back in the old days as well. I learned a ton when i was a newb being cabaled pre-50. But Eshaine has a good point, being in a cabal makes you prone to getting multi-killed before you ever hit 50, which definately makes things both frustrating, and more difficult. One thing I will say is that playing my first character since I've come back, and being pinned again.. fighting a bunch of caballed players with an uncaballed character is terribly rough.. I haven't ever seen the Imm for the cabal I applied to, which doesn't necessarily mean he isn't around, or that someone else isn't doing his job.. but I guess the point I am trying to make is, more caballed players = a tough love sort of newbie experience.. you can learn alot getting your *** handed to you repeatedly.. furthermore.. it evens the playing field for most of the pinns, that get dragged into cabal warfare, or combat with caballed characters (due to them not having any opposing cabal players online, or boredom, or bloodlust or whatever) giving them skills which should in theory at least help them stand a chance against the veteran caballed players...meh, maybe it's poor showing but when some nexus elder comes wailing on me with the full force of his cabal powers, and his extremely powerful quest class, against my non-caballed qclass vulnerable cannon-fodder, I just quit out. What fun is it to fight a battle you (in most circumstances) don't stand a chance in hell of winning, without the given potent powers that cabals offer? Don't get me wrong, I understand being caballed is a privelage, not a right. But when those players who are caballed wreak havok upon the non-caballed pinned 50's, it doesn't give them alot of hope for continuing to push forward. ...Just a few thoughts..

[Nightmare_from_hell]

NOTE: Your flag would still be hidden from others if you defended, but the enemy cabalee would be sending a note to the rest of the cabal telling them of your affiliations, hence removing the protection it granted.

[myrek]

So what are the real benefits a player gets from being caballed? New skills and spells? For the new player, I believe that these would not benefit them nearly as much as the vets because the new player still needs to get a hold of their own class without adding in more things for them to worry about.

1. The player/character gets recognized for their hard work.
   
2. The player/character should be more motivated to get to 50.
   
3. The player should have an easier time getting to 50.
   
4. Character has access to more of their cabal abilities when they get to 50.
   
5. Cabal abilities are better trained by 50. (game system percentage)
   
6. Cabal abilities are better practiced. (player understands what they do)
   

As is, you get to 50 and wait to get inducted while you're in all of the enemies' pk range. Then you get to play for hours to pass, then a vote, then for hours to pass, then a vote, etc (all in all of your enemies' pk range)... just to get to a couple levels of cabal skills that could have been available at level 37.

But I really think that the most important thing is simple involvement.

[Anume]

Anything is possible if you bring youself to your cabal Imm's attention in a positive way.

ALSO EXPRESS YOUR WISH TO JOIN THE CABAL PRE 50. Many players do not acutally wish to as it makes getting to 50 a lot harder.

[Telufial]

amen myrek.

ps. It's all the waiting and voting and waiting and voting and just generally getting your *** handed to you while that takes place, that is the annoying part. You can train and rank a character to 50 in a week easy, but then your looking at a month or more before you get inducted into a cabal. Not only do you have to wait and vote and wait and vote in the cabal, but you must wait and quest and wait and hope sometime your cabal elder or leader logs on while your playing, so you can get ranked high enough in your clan to apply to the cabal. Hell.. i've been an inductee in my clan for well over 2 weeks now, after completing numerous quests...and I've seen one person from the cabal I applied to on in a month... it's no wonder there aren't any actives in the cabal right now, since noone is ever around to work with those who are hopeful of joining it..

[Zhokril]

I have no problem inducting people pre-50. In fact, I've allowed people to apply in mid/late 30s and even had a couple tell me that they appreciate it, but are going to wait until 50.

[myrek]

i've been an inductee in my clan for well over 2 weeks now' date=' after completing numerous quests...and I've seen one person from the cabal I applied to on in a month... it's no wonder there aren't any actives in the cabal right now, since noone is ever around to work with those who are hopeful of joining it..[/quote']

This is a bad time of year to judge things by.

[Telufial]

yeah I suppose your right.. being the holidays and all. I haven't been around again long enough to see what a normal month during the school term is like.

[Nightmare_from_hell]

So here's how it goes...

You get inducted at 30 yay!

You're motivated to get to 50 for sure now! But u play at odd times, times where the enemy cabal has some players on constantly. They find out that u are in the cabal, (ooc, ig info, doesn't matter how), so now they take the standard. They find you hunting, trying to rank, they kill you, repeatedly, after all, you -are- in the enemy cabal right? Finally some cabal/clan members log in and drive off those meanies. You are now down a few lives without gaining any ranks. But what if your one of a very few in a cabal, like the watchers during their low points in member numbers? How easy is it for u to rank then?

Cabal abilities: so ur 30 and have cabal abilities. So what? This only helps the vets because they know what to do with them. Sure, it will give the newer player some time to test. But I know that with my newer chars whom were caballed, I was never allowed the time to just "test". So now, instead of people crying foul over 50's using cabal skills against non-cabalee's, you now have those vets whom are using these abilities at all ranks, while those true newbies are at even more of a disadvantage because now they have to deal with lower lvl chars with cabal abilities.

I can't argue the involvement point, because like I said, it was cool to have a pre-50 cabalee. Would I wish it on any newbie though, no.

Is it mandated that no one pre-50 be inducted, no. Is it an un-written rule for the sake of the new player, yes. Whom would the rule change help most, the experienced player.

Those of us left here made it through such times, but for each one of us, there are tens of people whom didn't.

[mya]

I think it could work for Heralds. No one ever remember the poor Heralds...

[Iusedtobesomebody]

So here's how it goes...

You get inducted at 30 yay!

You're motivated to get to 50 for sure now! But u play at odd times, times where the enemy cabal has some players on constantly. They find out that u are in the cabal, (ooc, ig info, doesn't matter how), so now they take the standard. They find you hunting, trying to rank, they kill you, repeatedly, after all, you -are- in the enemy cabal right? Finally some cabal/clan members log in and drive off those meanies. You are now down a few lives without gaining any ranks. But what if your one of a very few in a cabal, like the watchers during their low points in member numbers? How easy is it for u to rank then?

Wow. I never thought about that.

Wait, wait. That's how 1.0 was. And we learned to run, hide, rank solo and STILL managed to make 50.

No offense, but sheesh, Aabahran is supposed to be dangerous, not a sock hop for elven healers and bards!

[Telufial]

wooo you tell em

[Nightmare_from_hell]

"Harden up princess" has yet to be proven an effective strategy for retaining/gaining players.

Lines have to be drawn, and this one I do believe, is drawn correctly.

My view has sufficiently been expressed.

/end of posting frenzy

[Anume]

Again, there is no rule at all saying that you can't be inducted pre 50. If you actually want to be inducted pre 50, make us aware of it and rp your ... off. (PK won't mean that much at the low ranks as things are not that balanced yet)

[Kyzarius]

"Harden up princess" has yet to be proven an effective strategy for retaining/gaining players.

Lines have to be drawn, and this one I do believe, is drawn correctly.

My view has sufficiently been expressed.

/end of posting frenzy

It isnt, the problem is that it seems many people here wont believe it till they are the only ones left.

[Zhokril]

Alright, look out for lots of newly caballed people. We'll see how it goes this round.

[Anume]

Let's see if this little experiment causes new threads with people crying how they were killed all the time when they were not even 50 yet in cabal wf. (Be aware that if it is cabal wf and both

Also remember: easy in - easy out

[Guest emp_newb]

From my experience you get into a cabal when you prove you are worth it, and have what it takes to stick through bad spots. Usually it takes some time at pinn to be remembered, other times you can get away with it through RP, with imms, and most importantly other players. Remember

You RP therefor you are.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

"Harden up princess" has yet to be proven an effective strategy for retaining/gaining players.

"Harden up princess" Era: 40-50 players online

"Ouch! Don't hurt me!" Era: 15-20 players online.

Coincidence?

(Yeah, yeah, I know there are other factors involved.)

It isnt' date=' the problem is that it seems many people here wont believe it till they are the only ones left.[/quote']

Things have changed since that attitude was prevelent. Those people are still here, for the most part. It's not that we don't want change, it's that we want people to learn/grow starting with themselves first. "Harden up princess" teaches people to react/anticipate/evolve using their own heads, not just some information passed around through OOC means. It really is the people (and God, I really don't know how many times I've said this by now) that just want all the knowledge given to them without working for any of it, that tend to anger the older players beyond belief. I'll share with people that genuinely hit a road block after exhausting their own ideas, no problem. But if you ask first without exploring/id'ing/testing, you'll get nothing from me. I''m stubborn I know, but learning/finding things on your own just has so much more value to you.

It's funny how this has denegrated into yet another 'old school vs. new school' type of discussion. All I wanted was to allow peeps into cabals early because I felt it would help people. Go figure.

[Kyzarius]

Things have changed since that attitude was prevelent. Those people are still here, for the most part. It's not that we don't want change, it's that we want people to learn/grow starting with themselves first. "Harden up princess" teaches people to react/anticipate/evolve using their own heads, not just some information passed around through OOC means. It really is the people (and God, I really don't know how many times I've said this by now) that just want all the knowledge given to them without working for any of it, that tend to anger the older players beyond belief. I'll share with people that genuinely hit a road block after exhausting their own ideas, no problem. But if you ask first without exploring/id'ing/testing, you'll get nothing from me. I''m stubborn I know, but learning/finding things on your own just has so much more value to you.

I am am advocate of the protection of information, forcing people to explore, to learn the game and its mechanics through play...not guides and walkthroughs.

I am not an advocate of the beat everyone into the dirt till they log off or harden up. This is the "Harden up Princess" approach as I have witnessed it over the last eight years. All this does is discourage new players, chasing them away imho.

So you can kill the guy who is barely able to walk across 'Miran without running into a wall over and over telling him he is weak the entire time as you full loot and sac his eq. These are the things that seem to grow from the "Harden up Princess" mentality. This is what reduces our head-count of active players.

It's funny how this has denegrated into yet another 'old school vs. new school' type of discussion. All I wanted was to allow peeps into cabals early because I felt it would help people. Go figure.

Its not degeneration, it is the re-emergence of an underlying social issue in our little community between the different camps of long time players.

To get back on track...

In the other thread I said pretty much what Eshaine said on the 1st page of this one. People get into cabals early and never even reach 50. They get multi-kill-spanked into the dirt by their cabal enemies, get discouraged, and delete.

-or-

They get distracted by the cabal cap and retrieve game and never reach their pinnacle, get discouraged and delete.

The habit the imms have developed of waiting till people pinn before inducting is really to encourage us all to get to 50 before getting involved in indepth pvp.

Just my take, sugar or salt, your choice.

[tassinvegeta]

I don't know if this will solve our problem with lack of players. But I know something needs to be done and I mean NOW!