In AD&D (not that all of FL is ruled by these guidelines) anything with intelligence of 9 or lower has trouble making complete sentences. I wonder if that thinking should be applied to ogres as a racial max.
Storm giant strength!
The converse isn't necessarily true, however--that if you have trouble making complete sentences, your intelligence is less than 9. You can have high innate intelligence, but if you never went to school, your speech won't follow the rules of grammar. I always understood ogre speech to be something like this--their civilization is undeveloped in terms of language and such, but it's due to their social organization, not their biological intelligence.
How about we just get rid of ogre speech? It's illogical and makes no sense. If you want to emote talk as an ogre it gets removed anyway.
How about we just get rid of ogre speech? It's illogical and makes no sense. If you want to emote talk as an ogre it gets removed anyway.
it's fun 
Well I would like to see ogre intelligence reduced to 15. Then you can leave the str as is. Something that can hardly speak shouldn't be smarter then 40% of the other races.
It has been said many times before; Ogres strange speach has NOTHING to do with their int.
This was meant to bump up stormies and lower ogres, making giants the strongest race..
There are more than 3 sizes in the game, but I don't think giants should be bigger. If anything, ogres should be smaller.
It is right about the size being more about mass than height...look at dwarves...very short, but human sized.
Of course, I'd like to see the giant mental vuln go bye-bye....
Stormies could stand to have +1 dex too maybe, or maybe some proficiency in a kind of weapon or damtype...or maybe just give them a bigger boost on water
As for ogre speech, I thought of it as if their tongue was too thick to articulate clearly...not a matter of social or intelligence...I do think it should be switched with giants though...because no matter how many times people say it, people will equate slurred speech with stupidity...furthermore, slurred speech might be fun for transformed werebeasts too
Fire giants are tough, although not as much as ogres. Minos are alright (but seriously limited by ethos/alignment) and are followed by stones. Dwarves, feral, and slith are playable in their niches but die too easily to stay eqed long (mainly because they can be bashlocked easily by the OTHER melees). The rest of the melees are still very sub-par.
I still feel there are some fundamental balance problems with melees. We need to think of a way to make the other races playable as melees without weakening the large ones.
Funny I had a hard time persuading anyone that ferals were not the strongest ranger race a while back. I still think with the right cabal they could be nasty.
Celerity, I think you are an anti-Ogreite.
Ehhh? I'd like to see the arguments why ferals do better than ogres as rangers 
Feral aren't terrible and can even be quite good with certain cabal combinations...HOWEVER, the question isn't whether or not they CAN be good, but whether or not the races are balanced against each other.
Yes, maybe someone can play a half-elf warrior well...does that mean they are balanced with ogres? Not exactly...
And yes, I've been anti-ogre for quite some time...I've considered them very unbalanced for awhile now (since I played a couple of ogres back in late 2.0)...
I'm not sure how much the new change has done yet
He didn't say Feral was better than Ogres, he said that he was having a hard time persuading others that Ferals weren't the strongest race for Rangers. As far as the change to Ogres, they went from being able to heal supposedly 300+hp sleeping to only healing about 150 or so tops sleeping, not sure about camp. They average about what the average Warrior does that isn't an Ogre now though, although herb does help them some I'm sure, just not as much as it used to.
Honestly.. Ogre's can be NASTY!
A shame what they did to them. Considering how much magic hurts them.. you would think that kinda evens it.. but doesnt.
This coming from someone who has never been an Ogre, I merly have fought many of them.
Their vuln to magic was more than what made up for their healing from what I could see. The only downside to it was that unless you could output the force of magic that a mage could upon them, they'd be far outhealing you. Now with the lessened HP gain per tick while asleep and the magic vuln I think it's probably overkill. As said by Imms, they still outheal everyone else in the game, but on average it's about that of a feral warrior healing with sleep on the tick. It probably crippled them a little more than anything, though I'm sure an Ogre Zerk could still heal upwards of 400 hp on sleep with regeneration, or maybe it'll be around 250-300 now, not sure.
I really don't think an ogre and feral warrior will heal the same on the tick...
You heal a percentage of your total hp, so even without a regen boost, ogres would heal faster, having much more base hp
but..they still have a boost, so they will heal even faster
Yes, maybe their regen doesn't account completely for their vuln to magic...but of course..ogres have many more bonuses than simply regen...so, it should be the sum of their bonuses to fight that vuln
I think a nicer check would be to make it so ogres can't sleep while blind (like raged zerks--it is a HUGE flaw for zerks (which should probably be removed for them!)), while keeping their old regen
Amen. Panic is freaking killer on a zerk.
I don't get caught dead sleeping blind on any class so I wouldn't mind for that change by keeping their old regen while blind and can't sleep. Yeah, Ogres roar off pain from huge damage, I rarely have ever seen that from an Ogre except maybe when fighting them myself. Last time I saw it on one of my Ogres was when I got dirt kicked by a MOB a long while back. As for healing a total percentage, what percentage exactly or what range? If Ogres are supposed to heal at a % and I'm healing as fast as a Feral Warrior or basically your average Warrior, am I getting the shaft? Or maybe with that change it negated the whole % for Ogres and just dropped the amount of healing altogether based off of a regular race/class than an Ogre HP class.
The roar is the Bloodhaze. A berserker skill of path of devastation that alows them to ignore damage.
Ogres have this as a racial bonus.
It is a pain to see this happen. You are winning the damage war, and sudently he roar's a <<<<>>>> and you are going to die.
On sizes, there are not only 3 sizes. But five. You can learn about this with consider command.
Tiny Faeires are the lowest one i know.
Small Halflings are bash fodder.
Normal races like humans are the one at the middle.
Giants/Ogres/Minos are bigger.
Titan size are some mobiles like the Warlock, Big old worm etc...
If 24 STR is quite nice for Storm, as they where gimped severely on the old Giant STR purge a few years back.
Because they used to have 24 STR along with stones.
25's are only:
Fire G STR
Half DEX
Gnome WIS
Dwarf CON
Elven/Squid/Faerie INT
Forgot Faeries size, that would make 4 sizes. The 5th size I didn't include because of the fact that it's because it's for MOBs rather than players who aren't enlarged.
bottom line: elemental giants' ^^^STR/CON is simply overpriced.
they pay:
1.) a pathetic DEX, affecting inventory, melee and moves.
2.) certifiably atrocious INT and WIS, making this a defacto vuln and making it too easy to dispel summon seremon silence sleep and many other things.
3.) glaring physical hardcoded vulns in the fire giant case
4.) spending 3 pracs per skill
5.) hardcoded mental vuln?????????
they get:
1.) nice hit/dam
2.) innate bash/bodyslam(i think), and two-handed
3.) they're size, making a sucessful bash/bodyslam dangerous
4.) somewhat resistant to mals
I think the crappy DEX/INT/WIS outweighs the benefits. Why? because a C/C fight will be over much faster with sucessful mental spells landing, as mental spells generally provide a faster path to laying down real damage than do mals. Crappy DEX means your giant better be hitting really, really hard if he wants to win the race.
The innates are kinda lame, you would master bash and two-handed anyway. Size is always nice when there's no prot shield. Yay mals are hard to land. In the case of a FG he has to spread out massive mental AND afflictive gear. Most definitely if there is a hardcoded mental vuln on giants, that should certainly be removed, b/c why is there really a need to double bag giants' mental vuln? The de facto low INT/WIS vuln is enough, you really dont need to hit them TWICE on mental!!!!!
that, of course, is if there is a hardcoded vuln on them as well.
Stormies are my fave race, hands down, everyone knows. But in my eyes...
A) Their dex kills them, every halfling doomblade in the game will eat your life and make your afterlife equivalent to a bowl of pudding.
Storm giants, being giant chaotic good hurricanes of awesomeness, deserve 24 dex, no, I do not agree with ogre str being lowered to 23.
C) In the melee wars, stormies really do not do too well, their con and dex combo together makes it so that they have relatively insufficient base HP, their dex is run ragged so they get hit by everything, and their mental vuln kills their sanc all the time. This does not bode well in comparison to such things as feral warriors and ogre warriors.
Giants have mental vulnerabilities to balance their other resistances and benefits you haven't mentioned.
Giants are resistant to physical attacks. Storms are resistant to lightning based attacks. They do not need boats. They gain bonuses while fighting on water. In addition to automastery of bash and bodyslam they also get auto mastery of enhanced damage. Because of their size, they can wield twohanded weapons in one hand. I had some fun with this duel-wielding Ira Sanctum in one hand and a frostbrand in the other on a storm warrior I had. Fires are resistant to fire attacks and gain bonuses with fire weapons. Stones are balanced with no resistance/vulnerability other than the ones true to their race. They do also get a throw attack and gain benefit from being neutral when fighting align based battles.
I think giants are a very balanced race, however, I do agree that nothing should be stronger than them (personal opinion and not to indicate any pending changes to the race stats) since nothing should be bigger than them.
Oh...and whoever said that giant size in FL isn't defined needs to re-read the help files.
That's not very friggin tall for a Giant. They should be 12-15 feet tall, 9-12 is just abnormal, where I'd be more afraid of a 12-15 foot tall Giant, 9-12 I might just hope they're male and punch them in the goods and get it over with.