Need more people ASAP

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

I have to agree he was often right but he was also a very smart dude, intellectually, and that sometimes came off in his approach as a little condescending.

[Zhokril]

I am sorry, I must have been unclear. When it comes down to having a problem, or having an honest inquiry in game.. they are usually there for you (however there is always a feeling that they are the parent and you are the baby. The whole immortal thing bugs me, as it is now.) They are great in game. When it comes to the forums, it is usually a different story. I could backlog and count the number of times people were ganged up on and bashed ,then banned, for criticizing the same thing that later was acceptable to talk about once there admins got it through their skulls there was a problem. There is a pattern of chronic elitism on this forum with both staff and players included. Also a pattern of chronic ***-kissing.

That is what I was referencing.

Honestly, this is a load of BS. If you want to make a claim, back it up. Instead of throwing out a generalized statement about the innumerable times you can count people being "ganged up on and bashed ,then banned, for criticizing the same thing" by immortals, go ahead and name them. There have been TWO people banned from this forum in more than a year, and both of them had very specific reason which had nothing to do with arguments. In both cases the staff gave them many chances.

Nobody has been banned for constructive criticism or constructive dissent. The only time someone will be censored is if a) their post is inappropriate, their post has no constructive value and is just a rant, c) their post violates a forum rule. If you want to make claims like this, back it up, don't say that you could back it up if you felt like it.

[Mudder]

The problem is not the staff. If they come off to you as condescending elitists, that is merely your faulty interpretation of them.

Like Crypt already said, if your TELLING immortals anything, you've already taken the wrong approach. (Though I believe our Imms are MUCH nicer in these situations than the older ones, especially Sirant. Who would probably just forum ban you! ) Our Imms are people too and if you want to change anyone's mind about anything you have to take a tactful route.

I'd like to make it clear that I really liked Sirant, even though he was very hard on me at times he was an incredible Imm.

[KRins]

Unfortunately Mudder...this is the ***-kissing I think Grosek was talking about. Your very first line essentially makes IMMs (people in case anyone has forgotten) completely infallible. They can do wrong, they have done wrong in the past I am sure, and I am sure at least a mistake a piece is in their futures. Yeah it is technically their game I guess (no game without players though), but who wants a broken toy? Who even wants to play a game when the rules are either ignored or only enforced every so often? Let's call a spade a spade, IMMs have admitted they aren't enough of them...and yet our login numbers at any given time are so small we can't exactly justify more IMMs. Even people being brought into the game (from what I've experience and I believe what others have said on the forum somewhere) leave for various reasons, which I personally think come from unchecked RP violations (I could be wrong...everyone could just be playing a mute sociopath of varying align and ethos) due to a lack of IMM enforcement. As you can see...very circular. The snake is eating its own tail ladies and gents...and there won't be a snake soon...ya dig?

[Grim_Reefer]

FL used to be fun and magical for me, but it has seriously grown boring and dull. Nothing is ever going on, no one is ever on, there has been a sweet influx of changes which I am greatful for, its about time. But seriously? We haven't had a website that was worth a damn since the one with that hot warrior chick on it. If I was looking for a game and ran across that sweet piece of site, I would check it out for sure because it made the game look appealing. You mean to tell me in all this time no one can manage to get a decent website up? If you can't do it yourself, hire someone to do it. I seriously have no idea why we would ever be this long without a site, I find that completely ridiculous.

How are we gonna get new players if they get directed to a forum that has threads like, "Why does this mud suck?", ya know? I just feel like there is a major lack of motivation. It just seems like everyone is all talk.

[Malchaeius]

It just seems like everyone is all talk.

[Ali_gmud]

Now.. with a response like that, you leave everyone curious and questioning that little face with glasses... what is the demon lord up to??

[Deykari]

FL used to be fun and magical for me' date=' but it has seriously grown boring and dull. Nothing is ever going on, no one is ever on, there has been a sweet influx of changes which I am greatful for, its about time.[/quote']

That about sums up how I feel. Since my last main, I've rolled a handful of half-****ed characters that I never got far with, deleted them and then haven't played in a while.

The fact that we have less players on drains my motivation to want to play, thus contributing to the problem.

Dey

[shaggyboiler]

I like Crypts idea, he tried this way back when in a way with coders working on the test port. He will have to answer how that was in the end, but I think it was good.

We need things to change if this game wants to continue. I can't believe the most I've seen on in one time is maybe 10. If I was a newb and logged in and saw 3 others on in a hour, why would I want to stay? You can't RP with that kind of PB.

I'd like to see the imms on more and doing more RP, but first we need a bigger PB.

[Teralis]

When I got here 8 years ago just after the mud was opened there was this problem, then it got better, then it happened again, and it got better, then again, and it got better. It seems to fluctuate but I think it will get better again, just me I guess I am optomistic. However I do remember a few times when many were griping ohh boo whoo there are to many players on I cant find any good rares boo hoo. Oh well I guess people just have to have something to gripe about. Do I like not having anyone to group with when I really want to rank like mad, no not at all, but things do not allways go our way. I think people that are leaving have this notion that you can beat FL like you would a game of Diablo but it isnt that way there is no win lose, only how we generate and live our chars lives thathaving. Sorry mean anything. Will every char be a badass pker (NO), will every char be intwined in every rp plot that these great imms can think of (NO). I dont know just some thoughts Ive been.

[Pali]

That about sums up how I feel. Since my last main, I've rolled a handful of half-****ed characters that I never got far with, deleted them and then haven't played in a while.

The fact that we have less players on drains my motivation to want to play, thus contributing to the problem.

Dey

Ditto.

[Mudder]

Haha! I remember actually, we lost a couple of old time players because our p-base was too big and they didn't like it.

On the up side, being a DK wasn't so hard back then.

[f0xx]

To be honest, I like the way the mud is atm.

I've never liked it when I have 30+ PKs.

Just my personal taste.

[Ali_gmud]

When I roll up a character, or am training a character I always like to type "who" to see which cabal heroes are on, or if there are many people on in general, it just reassures me that I am not alone in this world... and I guess I look at the big names that I may be fighting in the future and while I'm training I just kind of sit back and think of the best ways to beat that class/race combo, without many players being on lately I usually just get that feeling of being alone... and then save, quit... then left 4 dead.

[Grosek_]

The two banned for openly criticizing the mud AND contributing a mass of ideas have been my cousin and grannyman. There have been others, but those are the most prominent in my mind. Unfortunately, I cannot reference their posts because they were hopelessly moderated.

The last thing my cousin said was http://forum.theforsakenlands.org/showthread.php?t=10831&page=2 .... and he still does have the same screen shots (he just showed me) and sadly, they mirror the forum as it is now.

It wasn't very creative criticism, but it was criticism. He should not have been banned for pointing something out that is still true today.

This is the only mud forum, or mmo forum, where censorship is this flagrant.

The best medicine isn't always creative criticism, especially since not everyone knows the answer. Sometimes it is a good burn to the rectums of the staff to find it (the answer) or give up the ghost, and hand the project over to new leadership.

Grannyman may have been aggravating to some, but time and time again... he would imply that the pbase was getting smaller and there was a serious problem. Everyone would bash him and staff would censor his posts, citing that it is a population pattern, and there was no problem.

3 years later, here we are. You reap what you sow. All that are left generally the butt kissers, and those down with the heavy handed censorship and iron fist style of moderation.

You know what... I am debating even posting this for fear of alienating people that I like, but come on.

I remember the flash video that malch made for the site. Okay for an amature, as a study project... but I would never show anyone that (much less consider putting on the site). If I saw that, I would chuckle and move on to a different game. I didn't want to hurt his feelings by saying much of anything, but it is quite apparent who the brown nosers here are by the number of OOOOOO's, and AAAAAAH's.

[Ali_gmud]

If I had seen that flash video without playing this mud, I would of done as you said, chuckle and moved on also, but because I've seen the inside of this game and know it well, the thought of seeing the animation of some of the characters fighting was midly entertaining. If the layout of this game was taken and made into a 3D rpg, I think it would be pretty successful excluding the looting I suppose... the layout is awesome, and it would be soo much more indepth that many of the games that have recently come out.

[Nightmare_from_hell]

This is the only mud forum, or mmo forum, where censorship is this flagrant.

Ever think this might not be an admin problem, but a poster problem???

*puts his hands up in the air*

But hey, what do I know. I'd prolly be considered one of the "brown nosers" anyways since I don't routinely disagree with decisions made.

[Twinblades713]

The strength in his argument is the truth in the fact that something's happening to the pbase that's making it smaller. There have been ALOT of bans, and some I've seen deserved and others I wasn't current so I don't have an opinion about. Maybe there should be more lenience, or at least ignoring of more flame like behavior with simple thread locks... It could be a problem with all the players being banned, put off, and leaving, that our pbase before was higher numbers because they were all roudy, rambunctious aholes that we didn't need anyway... or they were onto something and we're killing ourselves. *shrug*

Just some thoughts...

[Malchaeius]

Grosek, your bitterness is mind-blowing, and it is becoming more aggressive each post. I thought you were leaving after applying to become an immortal and being rejected. Did you not already post your goodbye due to your dejection at not being able to be in a position of control?

It took alot of thinking on my part, but I just didn't feel like I had enough stake in the future of the mud as a whole and am moving on to another project. I just feel that to invest the time I have in this project, there eventually comes a juncture to either take some kind of active role other than just participating... or move on to something where you feel you have a greater creative purpose.

The post I made was not intended to be inflammatory, and I did not mention being turned down for the reason of it not coming off as one. In fact, being turned down when players like Celerity, with both noticeable shortcomings and positive marks, were given a chance was a major part of my decision. On a superficial level, it was a blow because after speaking with the three of you I had the impression everyone was up for me trying my hand. On an even more personal level, I harbor no ill feelings however and understand that I was being judged on others actions as well as my own.

I just wanted to long-windedly take the time to wish you guys well, and offer any help I can in the future. Although I've decided to work on other things and move on, I would like to extend my gratitude for keeping the light on here, figuratively.

So now you are just going to troll the forums and only participate in flaming? Who does that remind me of? Right. Your cousin. Like I told you, blood is thicker than MUD.

The two banned for openly criticizing the mud AND contributing a mass of ideas have been my cousin and grannyman. There have been others, but those are the most prominent in my mind. Unfortunately, I cannot reference their posts because they were hopelessly moderated.

Your cousin and FiV were banned for their constant and irreparable douchebag behavior. Despite given many chances to relax without using the forum as their personal place for "flaming/trolling", they refused to be productive members and they were summarily removed.

Here is a tidbit from your esteemed cousin that closed the deal:

I haven't been involved in anything regarding fl in a while, due to three massive moves, the last of which will land me in china in five days. I did stick up a forum a site temporarily when this one crashed a few months back but lost interest in a few days due to more pressing matters.

This forum is for people who play the game, and those who played in the past and want to hang out. If you are not playing the game AND you have NOTHING to contribute except being a CANCER, then yes - you do not need to be here; I will remove your access. This is not “despotism” and it is not “facism”, as I will prove shortly, it is common application of the rules that you agreed to upon registering for this forum; it is the same when you register at many other game-related forums.

It wasn't very creative criticism, but it was criticism. He should not have been banned for pointing something out that is still true today.

This is the only mud forum, or mmo forum, where censorship is this flagrant.

The best medicine isn't always creative criticism, especially since not everyone knows the answer. Sometimes it is a good burn to the rectums of the staff to find it (the answer) or give up the ghost, and hand the project over to new leadership.

First of all, I doubt you have visited every single MMO or MUD forum out there. So it strikes me as pulling a statement out of your hindquarters. Yet let us put our money where our e-mouth is. Just some of the MUDs currently on TMS:

Aardwolf seemingly does not have a forum. Neither does Discworld. Achaea does not allow flaming on their forums, neither does Realms of Despair. Lusternia has a flame forum, but their terms and rules for registering forbid posting things that are defamatory, hateful, harassing, etc. Carrion Fields does not allow flaming, and neither does Abandoned Realms.

What about World of Warcraft? Directly from their forum rules:

Community forums are at their best when participants treat their fellow

 posters with respect and courtesy. Therefore, we ask that you conduct

 yourself in a civilized manner when participating in these forums.


Your access to these forums is a “privilege,” and not a “right.” Blizzard

 Entertainment reserves the right to suspend your access to these forums at

 any time for reasons that include, but are not necessarily limited to, your

 failure to abide by these guidelines.


•	Excessively communicating the same phrase, similar phrases, or

 pure gibberish 

•	Creating threads for the sole purpose of causing unrest on the

 forums 

•	Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights,

 making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters 

•	Making non-constructive posts 

•	Abusing the Reported Post feature by sending false alarms or

 nonsensical messages 

•	Numbering a thread, IBTL, TLDR, or any other fad statements


If a player is found to have been spamming or trolling, he/she will:

Secondly, outside of that failed experiment during 2.0 to allow a "flames" subforum, flaming has always been against our rules.

Furthermore, I have never banned anyone who openly disagreed with this administration who did it like a mature adult. I often disagree with Celerity's point of view, and sometimes I agree with it. To my knowledge, she has never been banned. Quite the contrary, I can appreciate her contrasting view because a diversity of thought is very well received by this administration. Even within the staff, Raargant, Eshaine, and I disagree at times - however we do it with class and with reasoning. Even if I do not agree with one of their ideas, if I can find nothing fundamentally wrong with it I will not shoot it down or veto it.

The fact of the matter is this: If I am hosting a free party and you come over and proceed to whip your penis out, dip it in the punch, and then flip everyone off because you do not like my selection of music - I have every right to kick you the hell out and tell you to never come back. You pay nothing to be on this forum. You pay nothing to play the game. If you feel like trolling the forum and just spewing hatred, and nonsense (whether or not it is inspired by passion and love for the game) then I have every right to ban you - and I will. I do not give a damn what you erroneously believe other mud forums or mmo forums do. However, like someone stated, a new player coming to the forums and witnessing the pure amount of feces thrown our way will be less likely to stay.

Ever since Virigoth left, there has been this notion that this is somehow a democracy where we can vote in new leadership. This notion that "I don't know who these clowns are, but I can definitely do better than them!". Well, we can squash that now. Virigoth entrusted the code to Rathe, who then entrusted it to Behrens, Chayesh, Caimor, and myself. If not to us, that would have been it. Forsaken Lands would have died. You and your cousin begged him, and he flatly rejected you. Now do you honestly believe you can “drive us” out? What is this? E-extortion? Sorry pal, not going to work. This staff is still very committed to working hard on improving this MUD, and we have.

I remember the flash video that malch made for the site. Okay for an amature, as a study project... but I would never show anyone that (much less consider putting on the site). If I saw that, I would chuckle and move on to a different game. I didn't want to hurt his feelings by saying much of anything, but it is quite apparent who the brown nosers here are by the number of OOOOOO's, and AAAAAAH's.

See, this attempt at flaming me personally is beyond weak - it borders pathetic.

1. Indeed it was “amature”-ish as I clearly indicated in my post.

Ladies and Gents,

I recently started playing around with flash, and one of the ideas that I would like to see incorporated into our new website - along with Icor's FL themed art - is FL themed animation. In lieu of that desire, I present to you all a rough draft of such an animation. It is what I imagine when I think about PlayerKilling in FL. Now I warn you that it is not yet done - that is it is choppy at certain parts, some more sound effects need to be added, perhaps some slowing down needs to be done, and the conversion process from flash to avi made it quite grainy. All things considered, I am happy with what I have thus far.

2. It was not meant to sell Forsaken Lands at all, any more than player submitted pictures are intended to sell the game, or player-submitted stories, or player submitted art. It was meant exactly as something you would watch and chuckle. Mission accomplished.

3. Do not try to do me any favors by stopping yourself from "hurting [my] feelings". There is nothing you can say to me that would hurt my feelings at all.

4. Calling someone a "brown noser" for getting a chuckle out of a silly video only further goes to show how much of an insufferable, pessimistic, juvenile prick that you have become. This would be akin to making a comment about how happy people are when Icor posts one of his pictures. I happen to think he draws very well, but he is no Steve Ditko or Jack Kirby - nor do I judge him as such. I, like most of players, are just happy seeing one of our favorite pasttimes in another light. If you cannot see that, then you might not have gotten enough hugs as a child.

If you are going to respond by flaming, Grosek, make it a good one because it will be your final post.

[goldbond]

i still stick a clothespin in my Celerity doll every morning for screwing up psi's.

[Grosek_]

Too much to really reply to, so I will focus on what I can.

First, AR's forum http://abandonedrealms.com/forum/ does not utilize censorship or banning due to critical and inflammatory remarks. What they do end up doing is making the person look like an idiot so they are too embarrassed to post nonsense.

Secondly, I don't know if you read the WoW, LoTR, or any other MMO forum I actively participate in.... but people actively do bash blizzard and attack things without giving any suggestions. Honestly, they have fixed the things people have attacked... and not just cry FLAMER and ban/delete/censor posts without the solution easily laid out for lazy admins.

Third, we both are aware your flash was amature at best. The attack I meant was on the brown nosing individuals posting " OMG OMG OMG! IT IS SOOOO GOOOD! AWESOME WORK! POST IT RIGHT AWAY" garbage we both know is not true. That kind of rediculous *** kissing does just as little for the mud as does trolling.

Fourth, this is at little "your party" as it is mine. The only difference is, by luck and default... it passed on to you. It is not your code, it is not your areas. You've done a lot on the areas, but you are to this mud as that steward is to gundor in LOTR.

This is not a flame, it is an opinion of an irrate person who has watched something he liked become unplayable due to the same people throwing up their hands and saying "OMG! We need more players! What happened?! I don't get it!"

[Twinblades713]

I don't wanna get into the middle of stuff or look like I'm taking sides, but I think a flame section would be very helpful. I've wasted a ridiculous amount of my life on mmos, and there's quite often a flame forum. Number one, you can find nuggets of good suggestions from people who may be otherwise unskilled at articulating ideas in a constructive manner. Two, people can feel like they're giving their lumps and it lets the staff sit back and not have to worry so much about moderating and becoming the "enemy". You guys mean well, face it. Everyone MEANS well, but it's how we communicate with, view, and respect eachother that we are not understanding. Nobody's here to fuc* up the mud... that's stupid and a waste of time. Malchaeius, Raar, Esh, Zho... are immortals for the mud. They don't want to ruin it.... likewise Grosek, Fiv, and anyone else who's been banned or may be walking such a line don't want this thing to die... It's too great. Three, moderators of the forums, instead of redmarkering... or deleting posts, they can just as well be moved to the flame section. If people don't WANT to read flames, then they just stay away from the flame section... if people are interested or involved, they can carry on over there and people won't get pissed that their views are being quashed as well as there will still be a reference point for everyone. I'm a big proponent of flame forums. They're useful, though they may be full of alot of garbage, it's like having our trash in it's own bin, instead of in the air we breathe.

[Malchaeius]

Too much to really reply to, so I will focus on what I can.

First, AR's forum http://abandonedrealms.com/forum/ does not utilize censorship or banning due to critical and inflammatory remarks. What they do end up doing is making the person look like an idiot so they are too embarrassed to post nonsense.

Secondly, I don't know if you read the WoW, LoTR, or any other MMO forum I actively participate in.... but people actively do bash blizzard and attack things without giving any suggestions. Honestly, they have fixed the things people have attacked... and not just cry FLAMER and ban/delete/censor posts without the solution easily laid out for lazy admins.

It still remains that you clicked on the little box during registration that said you agreed to our rules. One of which includes not flaming or trolling. Smoking marajuana is illegal in Jamaica - even if it is not pursued with as much fervor as say murder. However, if a police officer there arrests you for smoking marajuana it is a moot point to argue about how other sections of Jamaica will give you a glance over and go arrest a rapist instead. How someone chooses to enforce a rule, and yes, it is a rule in pretty much every forum that you do not outstay your welcome, is up to them.

Third, we both are aware your flash was amature at best. The attack I meant was on the brown nosing individuals posting " OMG OMG OMG! IT IS SOOOO GOOOD! AWESOME WORK! POST IT RIGHT AWAY" garbage we both know is not true. That kind of rediculous *** kissing does just as little for the mud as does trolling.

Once again - player submissions = amateur work. As far as I know, we do not have any proffessional artists, or authors in the playerbase. Proffessional, being defined as being paid to do so. Therefore, it comes off as a poor indication of your character to belittle someone for giving someone props for something they found entertaining. It is their opinion. I happen to find Bob Marley soothing, but Pali posted something recently to the extent that he finds Bob Marley distasteful. Do I think my rough flash was "awesome", no, but I was and still am proud of my "amature"-ish work; much as I am sure despite Pali's distate of Bob Marley's music, the Marley family and their fans are happy to give his work acclaim. There are those who might have found it to be "awesome", and that is their opinion. Even if someone posted the worst stickman drawing of all time, and was earnest in their attempt to contribute it as a player submission, I would put it up. So once again, I fail to see it as brown-nosing. I am sure to a proffessional designer, and a professional critic, it is unwatchable. However there are those who enjoyed it, and who are you to rain on their parade by calling them brown-nosers? In addition, how would putting said flash up in a player-submission part of the website drive someone away or be as detrimental as trolling/flaming?

Fourth, this is at little "your party" as it is mine. The only difference is, by luck and default... it passed on to you. It is not your code, it is not your areas. You've done a lot on the areas, but you are to this mud as that steward is to gundor in LOTR.

False. This is where you and some others get hung up, which leads to some of this attitude. It IS my party. It was not by luck or default that we gained Forsaken Lands. It IS my code. They ARE my areas.

By your (faulty) line of reasoning, the code was not Viri's or Crypt's as well. FL started out as a derivative of AR which is a derivative of CF which is a derivative of stock ROM. So was it as much of your sandbox back in 1.0 because Viri and Cryp did not write every single line of code? They wrote a lot of code. However, it would not matter to me if they wrote a hundred thousand or one line of code. The moment they began to work on it, IT WAS THEIRS. It was not luck but by the very fact that Rathe trusted us with FL's vision, and not you and your cousin, that he gave it to us. A trust that Virigoth has recently echoed. When the source went public, others, your cousin included, attempted to start their own. Would you accept anyone going onto that MUD and telling you that because you only got the public version the MUD that YOU were hosting did not belong to you? That somehow it was as much their party as it was yours? Please. Cut the crap.

I think I speak for all staff members, perhaps even past ones as well, when I say that we love our players. However, as it was once famously said, "this is our sandbox". You are welcome to play and have fun with everyone else, even voice your opinions and your ideas. You are not invited to pee all over the place and tell us to like it.

[Zhokril]

There have been ALOT of bans, and some I've seen deserved and others I wasn't current so I don't have an opinion about. Maybe there should be more lenience, or at least ignoring of more flame like behavior with simple thread locks... It could be a problem with all the players being banned, put off, and leaving, that our pbase before was higher numbers because they were all roudy, rambunctious aholes that we didn't need anyway... or they were onto something and we're killing ourselves. *shrug*

Just some thoughts...

This simply is not true. I can (and did) look it up in the click of a button. There have been 2 people banned from this forum in over a year. Both of them were given repeated chances and made no change to their behavior (nor was there evidence of effort towards such a change).

[Twinblades713]

Zhokril that wasn't a flame at anyone, but where my opinion came from was that I was trolling many old posts some time ago on these forums and I was just surprised by the number of banned people I was seeing. What I said was that some bans were deserved, and the rest I didn't know. I actually wasn't disagreeing with you there or making any mention to specific bans... or frequency of said bans... I've seen you make almost that exact same post before.. somewhere... and I think it applied but I think (I might be wrong) You misunderstood my meaning, which is much more elaborated upon in my idea of the flame section.