Need more people ASAP

[Zhokril]

I will just say this. A lot of people have this notion that people get banned for doing one specific thing. In almost no circumstance has this ever been the case, past or present. (except posting porn)

Almost every ban is the result of repeated indiscretions over a period of time and continued disrespect of the rules. There is also a notion that admins, both past and present, are merciless rulers. You would honestly be surprised about the truth of the matter. I will paraphrase a recent example of this:

Eshaine: There X is doing that again, we told him next time he did it we'd ban him.

Malch: I believe in second chances.

Eshaine: He's already past his second chance.

Malch: I believe in third chances.

Eshaine: This is the sixth time.

Malch: Hmm, well, I believe in seventh chances.

Even if these conversations don't actually place in this form (or even necessarily any spoken form), this is basically what goes on for a long time in the case of 95% of bans.

[Twinblades713]

*sigh* I'm not trying to get at who's not fair or whatever. I'm seeing this idea of the flame section as really an easy way around that stuff. I understand that you guys are lenient, and I've heard that situation before. Point I'm trying to make is a flame section will allow you guys not to need to make those decisions. If the whole pbase tells the person to stfu, then he probably will. If not, he gets to chill in the flame section, and can still post things with the rest of the community when he's ready to be civil. This "he" is any hypothetical who wants to flame. You look at the flame section as like a plastic figurine of a real problem... as in... "Oh he's flaming just put his -flame- in timeout." That way the person isn't alienated from the community, or if ALL he does is flame, then he alienates himself by being solely in the flame section. The point of my ban remarks, (Maybe I was flat out wrong, but it was a vibe I got from reading old posts and seeing banned "so much") was that those people are likely gone, but if they got to just be moved to a flame forum, they might still stick around. I honestly don't know but I'd like to try anything that keeps people around.

[Zhokril]

We had a flame forum before - it did not work out last time.

[Twinblades713]

I'm actually interested in a pm about it. I think with a displaced attitude it could do well... How'd it not work out?

[Raargant]

I'm actually interested in a pm about it. I think with a displaced attitude it could do well... How'd it not work out?

Things spilled over into other forums, on a more-than-regular basis. Managing that became more of a hassle than managing the forum.

[Malchaeius]

If you feel like flaming, and you just can not hold off, post on the prayer forum. Better there than putting bad vibes against each other on the main forum.

[Celerity]

In fact, being turned down when players like Celerity, with both noticeable shortcomings and positive marks, were given a chance was a major part of my decision.

What was I given a chance to do? To be an imm?? :confused:

I did actually get banned once...somehow I got banned for Acerbity's flame against me!

As for psi's...I didn't design the meditation/path system (Virigoth)...I just did some of the new spells!

[Malchaeius]

What was I given a chance to do? To be an imm?? :confused:

I thought you were Eshaine.

[Telufial]

laugh. I'd just like to say that I think this is being discussed very reasonably, and I like that. Well put on behalf of everyone for keeping it civil, and all that

[Grosek_]

False. This is where you and some others get hung up, which leads to some of this attitude. It IS my party. It was not by luck or default that we gained Forsaken Lands. It IS my code. They ARE my areas.

That is the attitude that will make this mud a memory in 2 years. In effect, I suppose I have to agree with all the past banned when I say... I hope you enjoy YOUR code... and YOUR areas when YOU are the only person here.

[Malchaeius]

What attitude bro? You are tossing out generic quips and insults now because your argument has no logical leg to stand on. It is an argument of passion and not of thought.

The fact that ownership of this MUD is mine is somehow an attitude? No. It is fact. Maybe a fact that you do not like, but fact regardless. That this is exponentially more my party than it is yours is somehow an attitude? Once again, no. It is fact. The attitude is not on my end but on yours. All of a sudden people think that this is up for debate? Who has the right to own the MUD?

I cannot tell you how it warms my heart to see that Forsaken Land has survived through last four years even though I did all but toss it in a garbage can when I left (very abruptly I might say). To see the labor of love that this community was to all of us (I've noticed many an old name in the forum actively posting) still beating fiercely with determination and enjoyment is a great testament to what makes MUDs as great as they are: The community spirit of the whole enterprise.

In retrospect there were far better ways of handing off the MUD to ensure smooth continuity, however the fact that it has found another home and lives on is a sort of a gift to me from the Staff that has made it so. I have to thank you for that So Thank You

I do not intend to encroach on what is now Your MUD

The only possible thing you could complain about is that "you guys don't take our opinions into consideration" - which is false. One would just have to take a look at the change logs to see how many suggestions have been into actuality. All of a sudden its "cool" now to be the voice that "sticks it to the man"? Yeah. Ok.

So in effect, I will have to agree with the sentiment of the players who continue to have fun here when I say "It has been said before and FL is still here." The only thing that will be a memory is that every year or so, some clown comes around trying to stir the pot and incite some sort of "revolution". Do not be that clown Grosek_, I think you are better than that.

Tragedy withstanding, I foresee Aabahran continuing to live on, change, grow, and adapt.

[mya]

The only possible thing you could complain about is that "you guys don't take our opinions into consideration" - which is false.

Some of you may think that IMM's are aloof and that do not take notice of our ideas/suggestions. But they do. They tend to remain silent, but they do use some of our suggestions.

I will give you an Example:

The Lightbringer sword of the Elves. That was a stupid sword, that was Two handed and no one used it. How i complained about that sword.

Sharazade goes out, Elven Kingdom goes in.

Bam, new sword. One handed and Vulnerability damage.

Sudently you see people using it.

They do listen, but they don't acknowledge it.

And they also do not broadcast every change.

[Grosek_]

I am not try to turn phrases here. If you want to talk fact, it is a fact that every consecutive admin of this game since the first have had an attitude where we need you and you don't need us... in most situations ( not all.)

You've heard it from more than one person... more than two... and actually more than several have said this.

Also, it is not cool to "stick it to the man". I've always had the attitude when it comes to this place because I've watched as Behrens took it and wiped his butt with it. When people called him on it, they were banned and chastised by players and admins alike that it is a very hard job to do, and whathaveyou. He actually maintained the attitude of "It is MY MUD... I DO WHAT I LIKE... THEY GAVE IT TO ME!" until he disappeared. That was well after he weakened the mud overall, both by apathy and inability to devote any time.

Before that there was Arzaeth (I believe he was the one who screwed up the renew or something). He did a good job until he jacked up and lost half the playerbase for us as well as alienated the pbase by taking down the forums and saying the players were too immature for it.

After all of this, it was passed to you and Chayesh. Since then, the mud has been in a state of declining population, or stasis at best. The website is embarrassing, solutions have not worked, and I don't know man. There has been general discontent amongst the players.... I have to say... give up the ghost.

You need us more than we need you. YOUR PARTY had a visit by Andy Dick, if you can grasp the analogy. Bring in some folks who know what they are doing. I won't go in to our private conversation too deeply, but you did tell me you have a very shallow pool to recruit from. Fine. Understandable, we are all untrustworthy saps. Hire someone with your money, or give the code up to opensource and let someone who does know what they are doing give it a crack.

The only reason to not give the source up as open is fear that someone can do it better than you (not by devotion but pure resources... financial and otherwise.)

Honestly, I don't doubt they can.

I have to say, you are far more eloquent of speech and can probably argue circles around me. In the end, all I can do it point my finger at the player number, point at you... and say.... if it isn't your fault... who's is it? If it is the players, it is yours for administration. If it is the previous admins, it is yours for not being able to find solutions and still keeping it as your own. That is harsh, but you opened yourself up for this sort of harsh criticism when you took the mud. If all you can do is deflect, and not give any real answers.... well... you are disposable. The mud has changed hands like 50 times (exaggeration.) We are not. Lose many more of us and you won't have a game.

[KRins]

I never thought I would see someone who can fly off the handle in text worse than I do from time to time. I do have some beefs with the game. I voice my beef (sometimes in indirect, aggressive ways that I apologize for btw) and I either take a vacation, I suck it up, or I envision a creepy demon god's face on the punching bag in the gym and throw bombs till I can't hold my arms up. Fact of the matter is...bitch and moan won't change who has shell access. Hell, bitch and moan haven't ever done anything for anyone. Of course I wish I had something new to aspire to everyday (I guess I do since I haven't played everything, but I mean like completely new skills/spells), but wish hope and want are the three most useless SOBs you'll ever meet. I honestly don't think the code should go open source. Someone would have to sit down and pick through all the coding. In the time it would take for them to make sure your code is tight and functional, they coulda wrote it. Not to mention, it is just a matter of time until someone gets their cheerios pissed in and they slip something nasty by the code reviewer and they ruin what we do have so far. Something is better than nothing...and I hope we are all old enough/mature enough to not have to learn from the "you don't know what you've got till its gone" philosophy.

[J.Twendrist]

I don't think anyone here wants FL to die, lets keep that in perspective. Not the players or the staff. We are here because we want to be here, none of us get paid or rewarded (besides the actual game itself), so thusly I wouldn't think its right to put that much blame in one place. Its all over, and we've all made mistakes. The single largest problem here is that Muds themselves are going by the wayside. How many players left for WoW? How many players split their time between WoW and FL? Thats going to continue steadily. New players are few and far between, because lets face it... who here has shown their friends/family/peers/ect our precious text based game only to see blank stares and question marks floating over their head in response. Where do we get new players, and more importantly, how do we keep them here? How many of us have killed someone who they knew wasn't very good? Thats a major turn off. Back in the day the learning curve may have worked well, I wasn't there so I don't know. What I do know is, when I started playing 3-4 years ago (God has it been that long?) it was incredibly difficult, but people stuck with it because there were lots of players, or because their friends played, or because they really like RPing, but that will only go so far in keeping people.

My suggestions (for what they're worth)

-Automatic newbie channel access to 50 for everyone. If you don't want it turn it off.

-Herald Elders allowed to approve desc's (if possible)

-Automatic enrollment in the Academy. If you don't want to stay, head out for another clan.

-Wait times... that is one thing that has always bugged me. I don't see the necessity personally on things like restrings, age changes, ect. Smaller things first, followed by bigger things like qraces and qclasses if it can be worked out. I think you can generaly tell if someone has superb rp within 5-10 minutes of meeting their character, if not the very first introduction. Everyone can spot them, so I'm sure the Imm's can too. Why not automatically approve these people if you can see it early on, and if they eff up than make the punishments harsher for a quicker approval. And lets think... if people get approved faster for superb rp as opposed to weeks for ok rp, I'm sure they'd go balls to the wall early on, and then keep with that train when they get what they want.

-Ranking- I know I know, the game isn't all about 50, but it is obviously the bigger part of the game... why not cut xp down some, something between a third and a half so new people can get there quicker. Sure they'll get mauled, but when I was new I was damn proud of my pinn and would rather get rolled over while playing said pinn than getting rolled over at 30.

Just some thoughts. Cheers.

[Reccum]

The world is ADD. Souds like the old FL required more effort to reap the rewards but now everyone wants it all right away. Thing is in this day and age everyone can get what they want right away more often than not. If FL wants to compete as a game then it probably has to evolve with the times and make some drastic changes.

-Faster ranking to 50

-Quicker app accepts/denials

-More frequent rewards for good rp/pk

-Quicker cabal induction/promotion

-Sac proof Cabal EQ

-"Starter Sets" of EQ sold to pinns

-New Races/Classes

-New Areas

-EQ Balancing

These are just a few thoughts, some might already be happening.

It is noble to maintain tradition and it sounds like a lot of you support the this tradition. But you also all want the game to grow....something may have to give, I guess it comes down to what you want more? Preserving FL or Adapting it. Sad thing is FL probably has a reputation and it is probably not that good... people still mud, and they pay $$$ too. So what can FL seriously do to steal some of those players, there is already an incentive, it's free.

[Icor]

Has anyone checked on other MUDs to see if they're having a problem keeping new players on board too? I think it would help to home in on the demographic of people who play MUDs.

[Greyanhk]

Keep it the same.

I read the suggestions and I don't understand them.

I am here because of the way FL is run. I am here not because of the old days. I am here because today, it IS the way it IS. I have been here for a few years now because FL is run the way it is run.

If half the changes some have suggested would be put in, I'd leave, because it is no longer the FL that I love and enjoy. FL is my home away from home and it works like it is.

I don't forget that this is a game, and those who run it have other things to do with their lives. I am appreciative of what they do. I don't care if another change goes in or not. I don't want my FL to compete with others. I like it as is.

It is difficult. It is sometimes, not friendly. It is unforgiving. It is home to some twinks. It is a rush. It is an adrenaline push. It is a game and I like it.

Some of the suggestions made go against everything that this game is. It is hard here. Why bring it down. I don't care if the guy next to me is elite, a vet, or a newbie. I don't care if they kill me, or I them.

I do care if they change it so the game becomes easier. I don't want gifts, if I did, I'd play a mush. I don't want bunches of rewards, if I did, I'd play a mush. I don't want safe zones and uber equipment so I can slice through the playerbase. If I did, I'd play a mush.

I haven't forgotten that it is a privilege for me to play here and I am thankful for that. I haven't forgotten that this is someone elses hard work and they have allowed me to play with them. I haven't forgotten that the original immortals made the game for themselves, not me, and they said I can play it if I wanted.

Thank you, immortals. I haven't forgotten.

Grey

[Iusedtobesomebody]

I have held off my response to see how other people feel. Some I agree with, some I don't.

As to Grosek and ownership of the MUD, you're a douche. And a bitter one at that. Get over it, or pack your bags.

As to improving the game, yes, let's adapt to gain new players. BUT adaptation does not mean dumbing down. If it's not a challenge, it's just powergaming. Quicker ranking is fine, as long as people have time to learn before hitting peak. Faster approval is great for cabals/qraces/qclasses as long as it doesn't skew the dynamic of player maturity/player responsibility.

More later, as I'm @ work now.

[Tom]

Keeping new players isn't only depending on Imm interaction; to the average newbie a 50 is practically the same thing as an Imm. What if more pinns took advantage of the linking of the academy clan and faction, and newbies were even more strongly encouraged to join? You can find a justification within almost any RP to do so, and since you'll only be factionally a part of Academy you don't have to compromise your cabal ambitions.

[HouselessRogue]

Throughout my time here I have brought a handful of people here. Three within the last year. They have all left. Was it lack of or poor IMM interaction? No. They all said the same thing. It is very hard to learn that place especially when no one will help you and the big bad no RP'ing PK rolls through. What do I surmise from this? *Points a finger at the PBase* You too share the blame in a large, large way. I have posted that you all act like a bunch of elitest snobs and only respond to posts by certain players. I jokingly said I am sure this will be ignored... and it was. Only one person responded to me and that was to agree because they share my frustration. IF you are a silent PKer and that fits your RP, fine, BUT, if you come across someone that obviously has no idea what they are doing, give them some pointers even it comes in the form of a shoutout on the forum. I am winning a lot of my PK battles these days. When I completely roll someone I make a point to add some extra RP time with them. I know people appreciate this. I will give you an example from back in the day. My first char was a Drow DK. Sounded cool. Crap to learn on. I come across a human paladin. We fight. I don't know where to get sanc vials (this was before some quests were added). I get rolled. The paladin firstly takes nothing (probably cause I had nothing ). Secondly, completely in character, he tells me how pathetic I am and what I should do to ever have hope of besting him. Wow! And my learning began. What a concept, eh? Also, in game, why don't you try helping your allies learn gear or avalon instead of just running through it to get what you want. Heaven forbid knowledge is shared.

The negativity. STOP! It is pointless. If you have something to say, by all means say it. Being a complete dick will not help anything. I have been in sales most of life and I can tell you to go to hell and make you look forward to the trip. It's called tact. Look into it.

IMMs. Are they perfect? No. I think in game they all in all do a great job. Are their equipment issues that need to be addressed? Do we need a new website? You bet. I think with all the negativity we are losing sight that Malch, Anume, Zhokril, etc. are people with lives, families, and jobs. What they do is in their FREE TIME not to mention I am sure they like to play and enjoy their game every once in a while (it is their game the same way it is a teacher's classroom - we all get to participate but they are in charge). We are being told that these things are being looked at, discussed, and worked on. What do you want? I see no magic lamps or ring of wishes. I think everyone needs to calm down some. Now IMMS, perhaps you can give the pbase a time line of sorts. Or an agenda. What is being worked on now. What will be worked soon. That sort of thing. I think it would be helpful. I for one love it when Malch posts something he is considering and welcomes feedback. Makes this place more real to me.

In closing, if you speak like a child and act like a child expect to be treated like a child.

[Anume]

What I think funny is that quite a lot of the improval suggestions already have been implemented or are about to be implemented.

Just two examples:

Superb rp -> faster approval. Has been that way for YEARS.

Faster ranking when fewer players are around. Partly already implemented, about to be improved.

Many, many suggestions who made sense have been implemented over the last year, compare the change log with some of the suggestions and you will realize that. We are not deaf to suggestions, it merely takes a bit to work out the details and then get the thing coded.

And we DO have two coders atm who know their stuff.

[Twinblades713]

And we DO have two coders atm who know their stuff.

Sexy coders.

[Mudder]

Sexy coders.

[Djriacen]

I got to a certain point, and saw that Malch likes Marley. No ****! Lets toke