Mudder Posted March 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hehe, actually I was going to say FL on another planet as someone talked about before, but decided to instead mention past Gods. I just didn't delete all of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aulian Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Or elves, halflings, faeries? These humanoids were widely believed to exist at one point. Faeries arent real? ****! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I DO have evidence that God exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudder Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 What is it? And something that is real, IE: "We exist.", "I saw a ghost.", "The bible is proof.", etc. That is not real evidence. People claim to have seen Big Foot, does it exist? Only in Beef Jerky commercials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali_gmud Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I like the concept of Zeus, Hades, Thor, Set, Posiden etc etc rather than the one lord, God, and of course the Devil. Mmmmm, I take that back I the concept of the Devil, but not so much God. My gf is morman, and she was telling me all her beliefs and what not, and her familys and churchs beliefs, christ I couldn't stop laughing. "God has put you on this earth to give you the opportunity to make choices which will ultimately lead to your fate, BUT he already knows what choices you'll make, and where you'll end up." Dummm dummb dumb Joseph Smith dumb dumb dumb dumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCaprice Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hell that south park episode was great. Dumb dumb dumb dumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I DO have evidence that God exists. I am absolutely certain that you have had experiences that you have interpreted as evidence that God exists, and it is fully possible that were I to have the same experiences I would believe as well. But I haven't had those experiences for whatever reasons (maybe God wants me to be an atheist? ), and I do not see those experiences as evidence for the same reason I do not see the eyewitness accounts of hauntings, alien abductions, Bigfoot, or Nessie as evidence supporting the existence of these things: because there is nothing objectively verifiable. Human testimony is unreliable. We interpret things differently than how they actually happened, we hallucinate, our memories change over time... there are a whole host of reasons why one should not believe accounts of a fantastical nature without supporting evidence that can be objectively judged. You tell me that you saw a car crash where nobody got hurt, I'll believe it without supporting evidence because frankly that is a common occurrence. You tell me that you saw a UFO as an oddly-moving light in the sky, I'll believe you saw an oddly-moving light... but I won't accept it as an alien ship without something more to go on. You tell me that God talks to you... I'm going to need something solid to test that against (accurate and specific prophecy would be nice, for instance) else I'm going to assume you've got a few loose wires. P.S. As evolution via natural selection is by definition an unguided process, no, evolutionary theory and any sort of creationism beyond basic deism (something started the ball rolling and stepped back) are not compatible. If any artificial selection were involved (as the Intelligent Design crowd argues in every venue but peer-reviewed scientific journals), it would not be evolution via natural selection. There are already plenty of examples of artificially selected organisms... most produce, farm animals, dogs, and plenty of other species have been cultivated by humans to evolve into their current form. But excepting human influence, we've yet to find organisms that required a guiding hand to evolve... and in a sense, human selection is really just natural selection anyways, since we're products of nature. P.P.S. Mali, if you really think your experiences would be convincing to the objective observer, feel free to toss me a PM describing them and I will be happy to give you my thoughts regarding them and how I, as an outside observer and a skeptic, would likely interpret them. Gah... P.P.P.S. Sorry, last edit. Forgot to say... I have never, ever met an atheist who did not exhibit a sense of awe or wonder at the mysteries of the universe. You say we want to see everything explained by science... I disagree. Science is a wonderful tool for understanding the universe and I am constantly fascinated by the new things we learn through its use, but I doubt we will ever reach a point where all scientists can hang up their lab coats and say "Okay, we're done, nothing left that we don't understand about anything." There are always going to be things we don't know, always going to be new things to learn about. Personally, I find myself humbled by the vast number of things we can't explain readily, by the recognition that not all questions can be answered now (and some may simply never be answerable)... and I feel a small sense of pride in myself for being able to accept those things I do not know, rather than feeling that I must invent a deity or some other story out of my imagination because I won't admit the limitations of my own intellect. You think atheism devalues the mysteries of the universe? I can think of nothing that devalues them more than inventing a magic man as an answer to them rather than giving them the credit and investigation they deserve as actual mysteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Way Up Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Bottom line is, no one's really gonna 'know' for a 'fact', until they pass away, or until the day Christ returns. And, until that happens, the battle will rage. The Lord and his servants trying to spread truth, and Satan and his servants trying to tighten the veil of darkness. Everyone is wired differently for a reason. Some people have devout faith, for a reason. Some people find it very hard to put faith into the unseen, for a reason. Then, there are the majority of people in between, all wired the way they are, for a reason. I've got no idea what the reasons ARE, of course. Except that maybe, if we all weren't as different as we are, what a bland world we would live in. I serve the Lord, and try to spread what I have when I feel led to, and I've accepted the fact that there are those in the world who would, basically, lay down their lives to see that the world is not 'duped into religion.' That's just the way it is, the way it has been, and the way it will be. Just like Knight/Nexus. Only...for reals. More at stake than some nice eq/cps. BTW, I did watch the video. I actually liked the way the guy talked. His accent/presentation, to me anyways, was catchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Professor Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I concur with One way up... No one is going to know till they die, but that still will not keep people from speculation... *shrugs* Never quite understood why there was a need for the whole "what if" factor... What if all our household pets were involved in some plot to take over the world? What if a snowman could be host to a soul that past on? What if God does exist? What if he doesn't?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudder Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 You're right. Both of you. We will never know with 100% certainty. Even if God does exist, there is even a chance you'd never know. Death or not. There is not a way to prove it. Just like we cannot prove faeries/elves/etc do not exist. Live the way you want to live. Don't do something you don't want to do or stop yourself from doing something you do want to do out of fear from some divine being. Live your life. Don't concern yourself with the private lives of others, let them live life the way they want. Don't force your views on others. Be content with schools to teach fact(or information based on fact), that is all they have ever done. Faith has always been something best left at home, where it should stay. Don't take it to the voting booth, otherwise you're forcing your religion on others. If everyone could just do these things, I wouldn't have a problem with religion. Except they don't. The religious fight against gay rights/marriage. They vote for people based on religion. I can recognize that people who are against abortion can be against it without being religious, but it tends to be a religious debate more than a secular debate. Keep faith out of it. Convince others based on terms we can all agree with. EDIT: And for the love of God! Stop killing people for their religious views or actions that YOU deem against God.(This is obviously not aimed at anyone in this community... I hope. ) /rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I'm just saying that I'm right and you are wrong. After some life experiences add up for all of us, we can revisit this conversation and you will see how elegant my arguments are. Then, you can reframe your viewpoints to reflect the truth. Ever heard the story of Moses? http://www.topmarks.co.uk/judaism/moses/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Way Up Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I know what I'd like to see Mudder's next project be... I think that'd be fun to see, and even more fun to interact with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudder Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 My chars all tend to be zealots if thats what you are referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 No offense, Mali, but elegant arguments are elegant because they are logical and well-supported. You haven't really given an argument beyond "I have evidence" (without saying what it is) and "I am right and you'll see it eventually". That's not elegance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudder Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Pali, have I mentioned that I like your signature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I remember someone saying so before, but I can't recall if it was you or someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MarKo.mk Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Humble agnosticism seems the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudder Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Which is why you need to watch this video and read the God Delusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Twendrist Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 That guy was just as arrogant, pompus, and self righteous as any hardcore religious fanatic. Fanatics aren't good in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest emp_newb Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I personally hate religious/anti religious zealots. They really make me sick. For a change people need to ****ING REALIZE that their views are opinions, opinions are not facts. Stop trying to force feed the masses opinions. This goes both ways too. I hate jehovahs witnesses because of a SCARY (really really scary) experience I had with a 6 year old malasian girl who was raised as a jehovah's witness. All these people need to get a real ****ing passion, like helping PEOPLE, or solving global issues. Not passing out random bits of propaganda so they can propogate their own agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudder Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 To say that an atheist spreads opinions is false. We spread facts about what we know in the world and attempt to raise consciousness about what people do not know and the unlikeliness of any sort of God. No atheist spreads any message for any reason other than the religious have/do go too far. I would gladly let anyone believe what they want if they didn't do anything that was in my rant. However, if the religious continue to try and enforce their outrageous views on me and the rest of my country, then yes I will do what I can to see that it doesn't happen. EDIT: To claim that an atheist fanatic is worse than a religious fanatic is the most ridiculous claim ever made. Religious fanatics kill people. Atheist fanatics write books. Religious fanatics say the world is 10,000 years old despite what the facts say. An atheist fanatic would, if God was proven to him(It wouldn't really take much, considering he is all powerful and omnipotent, right?) he would immediately take back everything he said and become religious. A religious fanatic, if God was disproved would fight to the death(Maybe even literally) before accepting that God was not real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Twendrist Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Aka, fanatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali_gmud Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Personally' date=' I find myself humbled by the vast number of things we can't explain readily, by the recognition that not all questions can be answered now (and some may simply never be answerable)... and I feel a small sense of pride in myself for being able to accept those things I do not know, rather than feeling that I must invent a deity or some other story out of my imagination because I won't admit the limitations of my own intellect. You think atheism devalues the mysteries of the universe? I can think of nothing that devalues them more than inventing a magic man as an answer to them rather than giving them the credit and investigation they deserve as actual [b']mysteries. I thought this here, was a pretty interesting and deep read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Humble agnosticism seems the way to go. While in principle I fully agree (I consider myself an agnostic atheist), in practice 50-50 agnosticism on the question is giving it special consideration it doesn't deserve (except perhaps on the grounds that it is a belief many people are emotionally invested in). All those other claims I listed, such as Bigfoot and alien abductions, we must technically be agnostic about as well... but that does not mean we are unjustified in considering them to be false. Lack of evidence may not technically be evidence of lack, but it is as close as one comes. Until evidence for gods existing starts to be more substantial than evidence for Bigfoot, I will consider them to be on the same page - mythical creations. P.S. Thanks Ali. P.P.S. Mudder, you're painting strokes with a very wide brush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest emp_newb Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dude, mudder, wtf. I dunno what the deal is, but you like to take what should be a debate to a new level with me, and I have no clue why. But lets go ahead and "debate" The fact that this video exists is proof of opinionated propaganda distributed by atheist/agnostics who want to spread their views. Your saying religions go too far? I think alot do too. Your saying atheist do not spread opinions? They do, the fact you have to try to convince people you are right is BLATANTLY an opinion. There is no proof of, nor proof against ANY higher power. You, and those with similar views, ARE spreading opinions. There is no fact AT ALL to what has been submitted in this video. Im not claiming to be a religious zealot, and read my whole damn post some times, you would see I also took an example from religious factions as well. Im sick and ****ing tired of nearly everything I say on this forum being contradicted by you. I say one thing, you feel the NEED to passionately disagree. Fine, whatever. But do NOT post a blatant opinion that is routing for Atheism, and expect the whole world to thank you for it. I disagree with any sort of fanatical views period. And Im never gonna stop feeling th at way. You wanna put stock in Atheism? Ok. You wanna say your not a zealot? Ok. You wanna make people believe you? Do not put such a pro atheist video on a public forum and name it a call to arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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