My last words would be...

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Power ranking to 50 and joining a cabal isn't exactly easy for a newbie.

Hell, ranking in general with the number of players around currently is a royal PITA I find. But hell, I am newb

When I came back, I felt your pain. It took me 2 months to rank my tester character to 50 (and it was an adventurer perk fire cleric!). It's cake to solo to 35, then quest to 40-42 then beg/whine/coerce/threaten people to rank you to 50 (especially clannies).

It'll be okay, I promise.

Besides, I want you at 50 too. I got someone for you to meet.

[Twinblades713]

But hey, what do I know. Apparently, I'm just the old guy set in his ways,

At least you've made your peace with it.

[MadCowDisease]

no offense IUTBS, and im not trying to be a dick, but get offa your high horse, dude.

when you started playing, was there anyone with 9 years experience on you to torment you when you hit 42? look, i personally dont think that ranking an adventurer to 50 will help. but i do realize that there are people that would. there are people that want to wade in the shallow end, not dive head first into the deep end.

what you're gonna end up with if we leave it as it is, is the sandbox effect (i hope he doesnt read this, he'll kill me for dubbing it such). they'll hit 42, get steamrolled by 50s and quit. and worse, they'll either not tell people about the game, or even worse, tell them not to play. not too great for adding to the playerbase, now is it?

[Iusedtobesomebody]

when you started playing' date=' was there anyone with 9 years experience on you to torment you when you hit 42? [/quote']

Gorath, Calandra, Maleki, Grishnak, basically take the HOF from 1.0 on this forum and put that in your 'WHO PK' list.

These were all vets who came over from AR.

So, to answer your question, yes.

Anything else?

Self-Edit: Apologies if it sounds like I'm on some "high horse", but hey- I've been there getting steamrolled by vets, and you know what? It made me mad. Mad enough to put in the work mapping, put in the IDing, put in the character after character to get better, put in the effort in really studying the games little nuances, put in the time to REALIZE IT WAS MY FAULT NOT THE GAMES OR THE OTHER PLAYERS.

IMM edit: Easy guys. -Jacobis

[Grim_Reefer]

http://moviestudio.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/2004_you_got_served_wallpaper_005.jpg

[MadCowDisease]

Gorath, Calandra, Maleki, Grishnak, basically take the HOF from 1.0 on this forum and put that in your 'WHO PK' list.

These were all vets who came over from AR.

So, to answer your question, yes.

Anything else?

Self-Edit: Apologies if it sounds like I'm on some "high horse", but hey- I've been there getting steamrolled by vets, and you know what? It made me mad. Mad enough to put in the work mapping, put in the IDing, put in the character after character to get better, put in the effort in really studying the games little nuances, put in the time to REALIZE IT WAS MY FAULT NOT THE GAMES OR THE OTHER PLAYERS.

IMM edit: Easy guys. -Jacobis

it still comes down to the simple fact that not everyone will see it the same way. that is the reason we dont have a wider playerbase, and it will continue to be the reason until something is worked out. not everyone has the same reaction. expecting them to is foolish.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Not see what the same way?

That hard work brings results?

Really?

[MadCowDisease]

*points to OP* do i REALLY need to explain this? really?

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Very few things are truly overpowered.

Good god, I wonder how today's players would react to Conclave powers?

In all seriousness, I highly doubt the IMM staff would leave even 'questionable' skills/spells/items in the game without looking into them and determining the balance factor.

But if you really feel the need to, yes, go ahead and explain.

[MadCowDisease]

i meant more of the "grr i keep dying, delete;delete" reaction.

i was almost to that point myself for a while. its far too common. problem with the playerbase? retention. problem with retention? arrogant vets that expect everyone to learn the exact same way.

people dont. that is fact. accept it.

anticipating the "put up and shut up" "harden up princess" and "well then we dont want them anyway" ... thank you for proving my point. its like you guys are complaining cause nobody wants to build a sand castle with you because everytime somebody comes to the beach you kick sand in their face. im seriously sitting here wondering "what the hell?"

[Iusedtobesomebody]

That's where you are wrong. I want new players. I want retention. The problem is, people who die and delete without even trying to figure things out for themselves have no one but themselves to blame. Hence why I said earlier it's up to the playerbase to bring newbies up to our level. I'd like to see a "Holy crap! I got steamrolled! Better check my logs to see how it happened and try to avoid it next time!" attitude rather than a "Holy crap! I got steamrolled! Not my fault, it's the vets who hold on to everything they learned and deny to hand it immediately over to me on my first character, ah, screw it, delete delete" attitude. Which do you want?

And as to your sand castle analogy, it's slightly skewed. A better one would be for us to build a sand castle, and have someone come over and immediately want ours instead of learning how to build their own.

[MadCowDisease]

do you honestly believe that everytime sombody dies, they only blame the other character? if that were true, there'd be a lot more delete;delete situations. people are smarter than you give them credit for.

i have never wanted to be spoonfed the game and equipment. i ask about the basics and leave it at that. its fun finding things on my own. the problem? not everyone is content on that. look at the more successful games. or rather, the games with larger playerbases. they are all more newbie-friendly. the best equipment takes skill to get, but the average to slightly-above-par EQ is practically given to you.

another analogy.

you cant expect very many people to use a bike trail that starts at a steep incline. not everyone can do that.

does this make them worse? no. they're probably better in some areas. all because of the way they think

which brings me back to the point: not everyone sees things the same, and any attempt to force them to do such is moronic. savvy?

[f0xx]

Actually, I believe IUTBS means something else. The thing is that every newbie which comes expects to be a bad *** withing weeks. There are some players here who have been playing for 8 years and still haven't had a "bad ***" character.

I have the feeling that a lot of the new players literally expect vets to start PMing the powerhouse combos, explaining cabal skills and spells, IDs and so on at the first mention of the fact that they are new.

I have no problem with explaining things to newer people, but hell, they must atleast be willing to learn. Every time I see a new player ingame I group them and start moving around FL showing them every possible consumable, every herb, every wand and stave that can help them in PK and most of the times I have the feeling they are just praying "Well will this annyoing git stop moving around and finally help me rank?".

I was playing here for like 6 years and I was constantly getting pwned and at the first moment I started logging battles I improved, A LOT. Then I started exploring and noting IDs, started to PM people on the forums asking questions. You will be surprised how many people are willing to help as long as you make the first move.

Back in the days things were MUCH MUCH WORSE. Full loots were the standard. No info was being shared to new people. The answer to ANY question was: "Make a character and find out." Now all you have to do is PM a couple of people and you will have your answer within minutes.

I still remember the time when I made a thread asking for clarification on mana charge and was told it was not allowed to be discussed. I had 4-5 people who PMed me with detailed explenations on the skill. I was very positevely surprised.

[where pk]

I think I have to agree with IUTBS. I started in early 1.0, made a demon necromancer got to lvl 47 cabaled and died so much that I rerolled and started again I got to a point where I was decent at pk and quit. Three years later I have to relearn the game and part of the processes is getting steamrolled. There is a large learning curve in this game but I believe shortening it would change all that is fundamentally right with fl. Sure players hoard information but that is what makes me strive to play and learn more. How did the syndicate do what it did? I guess I will have to roll one up and figure it out. I believe that once the gear issue is worked out, people will learn to relax some.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

do you honestly believe that everytime sombody dies' date=' they only blame the other character? if that were true, there'd be a lot more delete;delete situations. people are smarter than you give them credit for.[/quote']

Not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying they should blame themselves.

you cant expect very many people to use a bike trail that starts at a steep incline. not everyone can do that.

Of course not, they have to learn to get better, right? It's called, what? Experience?

which brings me back to the point: not everyone sees things the same, and any attempt to force them to do such is moronic. savvy?

I don't want everyone to think alike. I want them to think for themselves. Savvy?

[MadCowDisease]

in situations, yes. always? no. learn from what they should learn from. but dont get emo.

whats more prevalent, falling down the hill so many times that it becomes "screw this, i'm gonna go play WoW" or "I can do it.. Just can't let this falling down get to me" there needs to be a better balance between PK-intensive and newbie-friendly. the balance just isn't there right now.

you want them to think for themselves while having the exact same reaction to a situation as you. hmm..

anyway.. ima try and tone it down a bit, jacobis has warned us once already in an imm edit, and i would rather not be banned.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

I honestly don't know what you are referring to in the first part of your post.

I want people to think for themselves in the fact that they take things into their own hands, and put the work into learning. How is that a bad thing?

[Pali]

I honestly don't know what you are referring to in the first part of your post.

I want people to think for themselves in the fact that they take things into their own hands, and put the work into learning. How is that a bad thing?

It's a bad thing only in the sense that too many gamers these days are too lazy to do it.

Seriously, look at video games as a whole today versus video games ten years ago. Nearly every shooter has a crapton of checkpoints so that dying doesn't set you back much, if at all. Autosave features are set on overdrive so that when people screw up, they are left almost exactly where they were anyways. We have automatically regenerating health rather than being forced to rely on the few health packs scattered across levels. Hell, when's the last time you saw a game come out that had a limited number of lives/continues for you to use throughout the game?

Games as a whole have been pandering to the lazy newbie for years, and it's given people the expectation that any game should be possible to be picked up and dominated on within a few hours of getting your feet wet, else it's too hard, there's too steep of a learning curve, it's not newbie-friendly enough, etc.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

RE: Pali

I agree with your assessment. It's a shame when we have to conform to the norm. Kids these days...

[MadCowDisease]

It's a bad thing only in the sense that too many gamers these days are too lazy to do it.

Seriously, look at video games as a whole today versus video games ten years ago. Nearly every shooter has a crapton of checkpoints so that dying doesn't set you back much, if at all. Autosave features are set on overdrive so that when people screw up, they are left almost exactly where they were anyways. We have automatically regenerating health rather than being forced to rely on the few health packs scattered across levels. Hell, when's the last time you saw a game come out that had a limited number of lives/continues for you to use throughout the game?

Games as a whole have been pandering to the lazy newbie for years, and it's given people the expectation that any game should be possible to be picked up and dominated on within a few hours of getting your feet wet, else it's too hard, there's too steep of a learning curve, it's not newbie-friendly enough, etc.

however sad it is, it is what this game needs to compete with. the general populous will play games that are easy, because, well.. they're easy. like it or not, that is fact.

is extending adventurer really going to help the learning curve much at all? no. a little for some people, but not enough to significantly alter the way the game is played. so why, i ask, do you feel so intent on bashing the idea? kinda pointless. all it would do is allow complete noobs a little more room to breath.

im honestly having trouble with the fact that regardless of how many posts ive read asking for input on changes, however minor or major, that might add to the playerbase or retain new players, i have yet to see more than a handful of ideas escape the unwillingness to change. thats not a jab at anyone. just find it curious

EDIT: for clarification pali, i quoted your post solely for the first few lines in mine.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

however sad it is' date=' it is what this game needs to compete with. the general populous will play games that are easy, because, well.. they're easy. like it or not, that is fact.[/quote']

FL exists because we are the alternative to those types of games. It's for people who want more. More RP, more challenge, more rewards that don't come in mounds of gold or pretty shinies. FL isn't easy. That is fact. But what you get out of it, is only what you put in.

[Deykari]

I know exactly what you're saying, MCD.

I think FL is a very intense playing environment that will not cater to the more casual gamer. Is that a bad thing? That depends.

Watering it down could take the edge off that keeps a lot of the current playerbase here, but will make it more accessible to a broader range of players - not everyone has the appetite to invest the time needed and work with the frustration that comes with this MUD (because lets face it, everyone gets frustrated with it at some point, be it a full loot or a gang death, etc.) to be able to stand toe-to-toe with the vets here.

I like the MUD as it is, however I still think that the whole veil should be removed on taboo information. Most people know the majority anyway, and I don't agree with the whole "I won't say on the forums but ask me in-game and I will" thing because, really, what is the difference between Aulian asking me how to mana charge a spear in-game or out of game, in terms of the end result?

Giving out information isn't going to make everyone an overnight PK god, but at least it will give newer players a little bit more of an edge and help take away some of the frustration of what can be a very frustrating game. The majority of the players here - LA, IUTBS, Pali, etc. are all very hardcore and have gotten their knowledge and experience through the hard work and time spent here, but why not let FL appeal to the slightly less hardcore players and give out a bit of info that for all intents and purposes, is virtually widespread to most anyway? It's hardly going to make this place less hardcore or less intense if information surrounding mana charge or cabal skill #23421 or whatever are no longer taboo.

Just my own opinion anyway. I do understand and accept the counter-argument to my own argument, and infact the only reason I support the release of hidden information is in the hope that it helps with pbase numbers. If pbase numbers weren't an issue, then I'd have no qualms with how it is now.

EDIT:

FL exists because we are the alternative to those types of games. It's for people who want more. More RP' date=' more challenge, more rewards that don't come in mounds of gold or pretty shinies. FL isn't easy. That is fact. But what you get out of it, is only what you put in.[/quote']

Agreed. That's what I like about FL, I'm just worried that for every 20033330 people that connect here for the first time, we'll retain just 1 and that FL will die a premature death.

Dey

[Jacobis]

Nothing is hidden to those who apply for it.

[MadCowDisease]

i dunno about freely accessible info.. they should at least put some work into it.

i guess my frustration with IUTBS is that regardless of adventurer levelling cap they STILL have to find everything out for themselves. so really, all its doing is letting them live long enough to find things out. which is the entire point of even having an adventurer class in the first place.

why do you care if an adventurer can get to 50 and identify gear? they still cant use it. they just know where it is for the next time they reach pinn. thats it. so why argue against it? it really does nothing besides shorten the pk list.. so unless you're intent on steamrolling a noob, you won't feel the effects of it at all. in fact, it would be really beneficial to you, especially if you need to regear. get 2 adventurers to hunt with you, you get to keep the rares since they cant use them. win win situation.

[Deykari]

Maybe, but like I said, freely accessible information will not make anyone a PK god. I understand the idea will not appeal to the majority, but what the hell.

Dey