My last words would be...

[MadCowDisease]

true. which is why im trying to find some middleground.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

i guess my frustration with IUTBS is that regardless of adventurer levelling cap they STILL have to find everything out for themselves. so really, all its doing is letting them live long enough to find things out. which is the entire point of even having an adventurer class in the first place.

why do you care if an adventurer can get to 50 and identify gear? they still cant use it. they just know where it is for the next time they reach pinn. thats it. so why argue against it? it really does nothing besides shorten the pk list.. so unless you're intent on steamrolling a noob, you won't feel the effects of it at all. in fact, it would be really beneficial to you, especially if you need to regear. get 2 adventurers to hunt with you, you get to keep the rares since they cant use them. win win situation.

You can do all that now, as a regular 50. And as a bonus, you can learn running, chasing, and all sorts of PK nuances.

[MadCowDisease]

or, you can learn one thing at a time.

again, it really does nothing but shorten the pk list.

so again, unless you're intent on killing noobs, there is really nothing that will negatively impact your gameplay if adventurers were allowed to rank to 50.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

I guess I'm so against because it goes against what FL was started on. It is a dangerous world, no non-pk classes, no non-pk rooms, etc. Death lurking around every corner and a thief in every shadow. That's what appealed to me. It kept me on edge, like a well-put together game should.

*shrug*

I'm only one voice.

If I wanted to play WOW, I would. I want FL. Not kinda/sorta FL.

[MadCowDisease]

so.. leave everything exactly the way it is and hope that the playerbase with magically grow on its own?

look. its a really, really small change. all it does is give new people a chance to figure out pinn items.

[f0xx]

But you can do that now too... roll a healer...

[Dale]

I know exactly what you're saying, MCD.

I think FL is a very intense playing environment that will not cater to the more casual gamer. Is that a bad thing? That depends.

Watering it down could take the edge off that keeps a lot of the current playerbase here, but will make it more accessible to a broader range of players - not everyone has the appetite to invest the time needed and work with the frustration that comes with this MUD (because lets face it, everyone gets frustrated with it at some point, be it a full loot or a gang death, etc.) to be able to stand toe-to-toe with the vets here.

I like the MUD as it is, however I still think that the whole veil should be removed on taboo information. Most people know the majority anyway, and I don't agree with the whole "I won't say on the forums but ask me in-game and I will" thing because, really, what is the difference between Aulian asking me how to mana charge a spear in-game or out of game, in terms of the end result?

Giving out information isn't going to make everyone an overnight PK god, but at least it will give newer players a little bit more of an edge and help take away some of the frustration of what can be a very frustrating game. The majority of the players here - LA, IUTBS, Pali, etc. are all very hardcore and have gotten their knowledge and experience through the hard work and time spent here, but why not let FL appeal to the slightly less hardcore players and give out a bit of info that for all intents and purposes, is virtually widespread to most anyway? It's hardly going to make this place less hardcore or less intense if information surrounding mana charge or cabal skill #23421 or whatever are no longer taboo.

Just my own opinion anyway. I do understand and accept the counter-argument to my own argument, and infact the only reason I support the release of hidden information is in the hope that it helps with pbase numbers. If pbase numbers weren't an issue, then I'd have no qualms with how it is now.

EDIT:

Agreed. That's what I like about FL, I'm just worried that for every 20033330 people that connect here for the first time, we'll retain just 1 and that FL will die a premature death.

Dey

I love you DEY!

Yeah, I have played just about every game to date, I have a PS3 WII and XBOX 360 and They all started collecting dust a few weeks ago because only this game can keep me interested

[Pali]

Again, MadCow, a super easy nearly impossible to PK route already exists for someone to get to 50 and learn. Human healer. What is wrong with that route?

[a-guitarist]

I agree with everything IUTBS, but I also agree with the MCD.

The problem right now, I think, is that we're form the "good ol' days" and everyone thinks that the info "vets" have we're hording because we want to be on top.

It isn't so, it's that it takes effort to teach someone what we've learned- and I'm not going to waste 10 hours worth of game time teaching some jack *** 15 year old how to properly track each class when he's gonna just say, "**** it, gonna log into WoW." when I'm done.

How many times have you spent the time to take a newb through the lands? I've spent hours teaching newbs areas and what not... and of all the ones that I did, I know that two have stayed and are now on the forums on occassion. Of the dozens of others I blew a buncha time helping someone out, explaining things they could have learned on their own with a help file or an hour, only to have wasted it.

Am I bitching? Nope. I'm just lending to IUTBS's idea: You've got to earn the info. Do I mean put in 8 years of game time? No, not at all. I've posted that we need to be more open with info... but what I'm saying is- what good is it to tell some newbie how to kill an avian with an air weapon when he didn't even know what a Vuln was in the first place? Or didn't know about hit roll? Or didn't know how important Int and Wis were for training?

Basically, I teach people what I think they'll retain. A newb has very few needs to stay alive when they first get into game:

Knowledge of zones. Knowledge of skills/spells that help someone hide visibility (hide, invis, camo, etc). Knowledge of the roles of Str, Int, Wis, Dex, and Con (and their importance for each class).

Most importantly: Knowledge of when to Shut the **** up and listen. My first week when I was working on a cruise boat I tried to "do things a better way." and had to be explained that "We do it this way because it's the best way... if there was a better one we would have figured it out over the last twenty years of doing things on this boat." How does this relate to FL? Listen to the guys who have been here. If just handing out info would have made the game better... it would have been done 8 years ago.

Hell, the last time I was logged in I was grouped with a guy who knew his ****. Remorted Adventurer, had two pets and a full set of gear, tons of extra crap. He sent a tell to a newbie who wanted to hunt but was stuck in Mud School... waht did this guy do? Well, 90% of people say "Hell with this.... I'm going to find someone that will help me rank faster to 50!", this guy went to Mud School, grabbed the guy. Brought him to Oozes, gave him gear, taught him how to put it on, explained where he was, how he got there, where he could go from here, and then taught him about being a caster in a hunting party. When we got to town, found out this guy didn't practice his skills or spells, so he then taught the guy how to practice, how to do many other things that newbs need to know.

But, I suppose this guy was a massive ******* because he didn't tell the guy where all the rares where, didn't save the skull in the ooze forest for the newbie when he got to 15... and didn't even mention that it was a rare to the newb when he picked it up. The Newb had no idea what it was, and wont' under stand it's value for a few weeks, probably. By then, he would have lost it. Also didn't teach him to always fly, always carry herbal brews to avoid theives and ninjas, always have gyvels or red potions, always have recalls available, always carry sanc potions (even though he was an invoker with sanc), explain the importance of slow and haste on mana and hp regen, explain dispel magic verses cancelation, explain that Giants you attack with magic weapons, not physical, while ogres are the same, explain that dispel evil/good does nothing to same align or neutrals, explain that Vampires/Demons/Crusaders/Liches/Avatars/Undeads are applied for, explain the apping process, explain how to write notes or apps, tell him how to use the reputation command to track enemies, tell him how to blind a target, but avoid doing it to warriors who know their **** because they have blind fighting, show him the proper way to draw a mob in a room of two or more out so you only have to fight one, explain how to get a room full of mobs to stop tracking you, why to attack stationary mobs before fleeing from a room with multiple mobs so you DON'T get tracked, how to use the locker system for when you do die, what the Starstones are used for, how to know when they've repoped, what skills were useless, or what spells, how long to wait for an area to repop after you've cleared it, how to check if an area repoped, how to use the savant gate system, how to use the browse or value commands in a store, where Brambus is, the value of knowing which potions/scrolls/wands to buy in what cities for the cheapest and highest level spell in each, .... you get the idea.

a-g

[Reccum]

Make all the info possible public on the new website. Areas, selectable info, rare eq info, q info. The same people will come out on top anyway because of speed and experience. That simply cannot be taught. But everyone will at least feel like they know why they lost when they do.

Everyone wants a bigger pbase but not everyone is willing to lose what they like about this game. You are NOT supposed to be safe at lvl 50, that's why advs. stop at 30. Many players in this thread have stated many ways to be survivable at 50 already without being invincible.

Lot's of steps are being taken it seems to make new changes and improvements but the lack of pbase comes from a decline of text based anything, and the softness of this generation of gamers.

Do I think there should be a middle ground? Hell yah! DO I think letting people get to 50 with no danger is the way? Hell no, that's not FL.

Things to level the playing field a bit:

1) Tighten the gap between god suits and a suit of all non-rares.

2) Let information flow freely on the forums (it does everywhere else, why still keep it underground and taboo) Maybe this way when someone gets beaten they lose that excuse of "He is using secret info to beat me whaaaaa". Now when I get reamed by Scorvale I can do some research on Liches and Savants and find a way to defend myself without having to find a vet in game who will sit me down and explain Scorvales strengths and weaknesses.

3) Introduce a new command "noobieoutfit" Any character can use this 10 times in their lifespan. They type that in and a Genie comes down and grants them a full set of nonrares and a few cosumables (Sets could easily be designed for each class/align.) Now at least noobies can get back on their feet quickly without having a permanent crutch.

4) Make it much easier for anyone to get a qsomething or caballed, THEN, make it ten times more likely that said person gets denied or expelled if they break RP. Then there wont be discrimination against newer players regarding qspots and cabals but at time same time everyone is held to even tighter standards and is responsible for any action they take. This way anyone can get his demon cleric or undead thief within a week and then get denied in a day for not rping right. It is better than someone waiting at 30 for a month and a half only to get nowhere or just give up.

5) Make a link at creation to the essay section of this forum and make sure people see it, make it BIG AND RED if you have to. Some of those essays were invaluable when I started. But also, maybe update the out of date ones.

6) Apply Celerty's system =O)

ps AG, dont tell noobs to use magic on Giants and mundane of Ogres

[MadCowDisease]

Again' date=' MadCow, a super easy nearly impossible to PK route already exists for someone to get to 50 and learn. Human healer. What is wrong with that route?[/quote']

how many people like healing? thats the problem.

also, from what i have heard, playing a healer is a lot more difficult than playing the newbie class.

and dont you have to wait until 30 to go from cleric to healer?

having an adventurer class max rank of 50 would be so much more helpful. it gives you practice with both casting and melee. its the newbie class for a reason.

[MadCowDisease]

I agree with everything IUTBS, but I also agree with the MCD.

The problem right now, I think, is that we're form the "good ol' days" and everyone thinks that the info "vets" have we're hording because we want to be on top.

It isn't so, it's that it takes effort to teach someone what we've learned- and I'm not going to waste 10 hours worth of game time teaching some jack *** 15 year old how to properly track each class when he's gonna just say, "**** it, gonna log into WoW." when I'm done.

How many times have you spent the time to take a newb through the lands? I've spent hours teaching newbs areas and what not... and of all the ones that I did, I know that two have stayed and are now on the forums on occassion. Of the dozens of others I blew a buncha time helping someone out, explaining things they could have learned on their own with a help file or an hour, only to have wasted it.

Am I bitching? Nope. I'm just lending to IUTBS's idea: You've got to earn the info. Do I mean put in 8 years of game time? No, not at all. I've posted that we need to be more open with info... but what I'm saying is- what good is it to tell some newbie how to kill an avian with an air weapon when he didn't even know what a Vuln was in the first place? Or didn't know about hit roll? Or didn't know how important Int and Wis were for training?

Basically, I teach people what I think they'll retain. A newb has very few needs to stay alive when they first get into game:

Knowledge of zones. Knowledge of skills/spells that help someone hide visibility (hide, invis, camo, etc). Knowledge of the roles of Str, Int, Wis, Dex, and Con (and their importance for each class).

Most importantly: Knowledge of when to Shut the **** up and listen. My first week when I was working on a cruise boat I tried to "do things a better way." and had to be explained that "We do it this way because it's the best way... if there was a better one we would have figured it out over the last twenty years of doing things on this boat." How does this relate to FL? Listen to the guys who have been here. If just handing out info would have made the game better... it would have been done 8 years ago.

Hell, the last time I was logged in I was grouped with a guy who knew his ****. Remorted Adventurer, had two pets and a full set of gear, tons of extra crap. He sent a tell to a newbie who wanted to hunt but was stuck in Mud School... waht did this guy do? Well, 90% of people say "Hell with this.... I'm going to find someone that will help me rank faster to 50!", this guy went to Mud School, grabbed the guy. Brought him to Oozes, gave him gear, taught him how to put it on, explained where he was, how he got there, where he could go from here, and then taught him about being a caster in a hunting party. When we got to town, found out this guy didn't practice his skills or spells, so he then taught the guy how to practice, how to do many other things that newbs need to know.

But, I suppose this guy was a massive ******* because he didn't tell the guy where all the rares where, didn't save the skull in the ooze forest for the newbie when he got to 15... and didn't even mention that it was a rare to the newb when he picked it up. The Newb had no idea what it was, and wont' under stand it's value for a few weeks, probably. By then, he would have lost it. Also didn't teach him to always fly, always carry herbal brews to avoid theives and ninjas, always have gyvels or red potions, always have recalls available, always carry sanc potions (even though he was an invoker with sanc), explain the importance of slow and haste on mana and hp regen, explain dispel magic verses cancelation, explain that Giants you attack with magic weapons, not physical, while ogres are the opposite, explain that dispel evil/good does nothing to same align or neutrals, explain that Vampires/Demons/Crusaders/Liches/Avatars/Undeads are applied for, explain the apping process, explain how to write notes or apps, tell him how to use the reputation command to track enemies, tell him how to blind a target, but avoid doing it to warriors who know their **** because they have blind fighting, show him the proper way to draw a mob in a room of two or more out so you only have to fight one, explain how to get a room full of mobs to stop tracking you, why to attack stationary mobs before fleeing from a room with multiple mobs so you DON'T get tracked, how to use the locker system for when you do die, what the Starstones are used for, how to know when they've repoped, what skills were useless, or what spells, how long to wait for an area to repop after you've cleared it, how to check if an area repoped, how to use the savant gate system, how to use the browse or value commands in a store, where Brambus is, the value of knowing which potions/scrolls/wands to buy in what cities for the cheapest and highest level spell in each, .... you get the idea.

a-g

not at all. im not saying tell everyone where everything is. im not sayuing spoonfeed the game to them. extending adventurers to 50 does not magically tell every noob where the rares are. it doesnt instantly make them better in combat. no. all it does is help them FIND the rares. how? by letting them explore without the fear of getting killed by some vet who wants to test out his new weapon, or somethin like that. it lets them learn one thing at a time. because lets face it, a cap at 30 is pointless. the game is much, much different at pinn than at 30.

never have i said "tell everone everything about the game." that would be a disaster.

[Reccum]

What's the difference betwen being spoonfed and having a lvl 50 that cannot be pked led around the world by the hand to identify rares?

edit: If someone new doesn't wanna be pked then they should roll something neutral that desn't make enemies, that rp's with everyone, and then join herald. You will be pretty much safe if you do those three things. FL has no safe rooms, but if you rp a harmless being who only wants to learn, not that many players are so cold blooded they will kill/full you. And if it does happen it will be so rare that it won't ruin the game for you.

It has been said a bajillion times, the first set of skills needed to survive in FL is to run and hide. If anyone can roam around at lvl 50 with impunity then they are only hurting themselves because when they do pinn a pk char they will get reamed. Knowing locations of rares is NOT a substitute for survival.

[WarriorCleric]

I'm not sure a true newb is going to get to 50 with an adventurer and get any meaningful exploring done with the time limits. What is it, 50 hours? How long does it take a newb to hit 50?

And playing a healer is really easy. And it teaches you spell upkeep, and it's free exploring. And the first 25 levels of healer and cleric are close enough that its more or less the same class. Frenzy and Steel wall? Worth the loss of two prs, or none if elf.

WC

[Pali]

how many people like healing? thats the problem.

also, from what i have heard, playing a healer is a lot more difficult than playing the newbie class.

and dont you have to wait until 30 to go from cleric to healer?

If you can't reach 30, that's what adventurers are for.

If you CAN reach 30 but can't reach/survive at 50, that's (partially, anyhow) what healers are for.

My first pinn was a healer. That char remains the longest-played char I've ever had in terms of hours, and with a little creativity in your RP (and with not caring about your eq) you can have an absolute blast every time you log on no matter what happens.

This game is not a one or two character playthrough. Don't look at each character like it needs to be a great world-changing experience... allow some to simply be learning experiences.

[MadCowDisease]

What's the difference betwen being spoonfed and having a lvl 50 that cannot be pked led around the world by the hand to identify rares?

edit: If someone new doesn't wanna be pked then they should roll something neutral that desn't make enemies, that rp's with everyone, and then join herald. You will be pretty much safe if you do those three things. FL has no safe rooms, but if you rp a harmless being who only wants to learn, not that many players are so cold blooded they will kill/full you. And if it does happen it will be so rare that it won't ruin the game for you.

It has been said a bajillion times, the first set of skills needed to survive in FL is to run and hide. If anyone can roam around at lvl 50 with impunity then they are only hurting themselves because when they do pinn a pk char they will get reamed. Knowing locations of rares is NOT a substitute for survival.

the difference is that you still have to go around and look for the rares. and reach pinn.

roaming around as a 50 adventurer then rerolling would be little different than runnin around as a healer and rerollin. one cant be PKed, on is almost impossible to PK. neither of which will prepare you for PKs.

knowing rare location is definately not equivalent to the ability to survive. but it helps. thats undeniable.

[Dale]

Wow dude, as soon as I come to this post he's already banned, damn. Yeah you gotta learn that it's just a game, an online one always with other people playing, some messed up stuff is gonna happen, you just can't take it personally. Just think that elf cleric you just bash locked to death with your fire giant warrior at lvl 15 could have been that drow invoker that destroyed your ogre ranger at lvl 50 the day before. That's how I think of it, take that lvl 15 elf cleric.

[MadCowDisease]

im really tempted to play my bard again. her rp is so much fun.

[Pali]

Healer will get you learning how to survive PK, which is the first lesson of PK everyone needs. You don't learn to kill until after you learn to stay alive.

EDIT: You WILL still die as a healer. Like I said, my first pinn was a healer... who had something like 40 or so deaths. I had leaders of two cabals regularly pounding on me before I was even pinn. I learned a lot about having a proper level of paranoia on this character, as well as how to keep my calm when I see an enemy at least to the point of evading him. I learned to run.

[Dale]

im really tempted to play my bard again. her rp is so much fun.

I miss my evil bard, man I'm so pissed I quit playing him.

[MadCowDisease]

Healer will get you learning how to survive PK, which is the first lesson of PK everyone needs. You don't learn to kill until after you learn to stay alive.

EDIT: You WILL still die as a healer. Like I said, my first pinn was a healer... who had something like 40 or so deaths. I had leaders of two cabals regularly pounding on me before I was even pinn. I learned a lot about having a proper level of paranoia on this character, as well as how to keep my calm when I see an enemy at least to the point of evading him. I learned to run.

which brings me back to my reasoning for extending advs to 50. learn one thing at a time. learn to gear. then learn to pk.

[MadCowDisease]

I miss my evil bard' date=' man I'm so pissed I quit playing him.[/quote']

i had a nuetral bard that couldnt sing at all, but she was tone deaf, so she didn't know and thought she had the purest voice in all of Aabahran. and she thought that avians were angels. and everything she said would be in prose and rhyme

[Reccum]

which brings me back to my reasoning for extending advs to 50. learn one thing at a time. learn to gear. then learn to pk.

You cannot "learn to gear" with an adventurer. You can't wear the rares, you can't test them. Besides, gear and pk go hand in hand, you don't learn them seperately. If what you want is a database of eq stats and locations then ask through pm's, aim, or whatever you use to talk about FL. Or roll something survivable and make your own database.

Be creative and come up with other possibilites to help noobs and retain players because it is important! But I would be very surprised to ever see adventurers extended to 50.

[Pali]

which brings me back to my reasoning for extending advs to 50. learn one thing at a time. learn to gear. then learn to pk.

Except you don't learn to gear at 50 as an adventurer because you can't touch rare eq. Sure, you can ID some stuff on the ground, but you'll learn nothing about putting a suit together, about how it affects you during PK. Getting used to not being PKed in this game is going to hinder you in the long run, not help you, because it will breed bad habits (i.e. sleeping wherever you want regardless of who is on, not paying attention to where and who pk).

Regardless, learning to survive (not to PK, but to SURVIVE) is a FAR more important and crucial thing in this game than learning to equip is. You won't keep your eq until you learn it no matter how good your eq is.

[a-guitarist]

ps AG' date=' dont tell noobs to use magic on Giants and mundane of Ogres [/quote']

No clue what you're talking about, buddy. Nope. Never made that kinda stupid mistake....

a-g