Illithid Shock

melee combat is the bane of an illithid, and an illithid that waits to shock before running is not very likely to escape unless they are quite skilled at escaping. Being drained leaves them with such a rapid move drain that its amazing you get two zones before your stuck standing with your thumb in your butt.

This change doesn't change that.

Yes, a necromancer can stand in combat behind his zombies after shock. And yes it is a tool of the race that is very useful. But any illithid that does so when their opponent is anything but awful condition is going to get pasted.

This also wouldn't make you more or less survivable if that were true.

The longer an illithid remains the more chance it has of being pasted or caugfht with no moves while retreating.

This change actually makes illithid more survivable in this regard, since there is no reason at all for them to stay.

Loss of zombies? please. your insane, this would mean that, for example, in cabal warfare an ill/necro might as well log out when it goes into shock...as the loss of its zombies means it cant kill squat or offset melee attacks with rescue/flee tactics. And while its raising zombies dealing with the day long (or three day long) timer on strength damned the enemy will rip either the illithid or its altar apart.

This is what happens to all other necro's/class's pets when hit zero hp. A drow necro would be zombieless AND dead/eqless in the same situation.

It gives a nigh defensless melee type the ability to absorb a little more damage and shock helps in allowing a necromancer to AVOID what you are SUGGESTING.

Is shock here to save the necro or to save the zombies? I'm willing to argue the former...

And hey, if an illithid goes into shock...and chooses to use those last few ingots of health to recite scrolls of decapitation at you..then thats their choice. They risk death by doing so.

Like I said in my last post, shock should be an avenue of escape, not a calculated risk for maybe killing them. It should be more of "maybe surviving".

Then their is an incentive for Necromancer race choices to be different than the higher than usual number of illithid necros. I agree with Celerity. Caballed Illithids should run the risk of going to 0hp and saving their lives whilst having to regain zombies. These changes would help more diversity in the illithid and necromancer combination.

yeah the good ol' illithid/necro combination... i.e. the only combination an illithid has after the bad decision to make PSI's a qclass. and now by sheer force of will, the last remaining perk of the entire race is supposed to be on the chopping block for no good reason whatsoever. this is strangely painful to even watch the attempt at doing something as misguided as this.

^ Hates necros and specifically squidies. Wants them axed on the serious note.

I am curious why you think the change is required, Celerity.

It is certainly easy enough to do, but that doesn't mean it NEEDS to be done.

Do you believe it is overpowering to keep their zombies? Using a racial feature as a combat tactic is hardly new, and probably shouldn't even be considered negative.

How long have illithids necros had shock and this is the first gripe about it.

Why?

For illithids to actively avoid going into shock.

Shock, like death, should be avoided, by nature of what it is.

I feel that shock is a state that should NOT be relied upon in terms of OFFENSE. Skilled players have shown that this can be done.

Does it affect most people? Probably not; this isn't intended to be a game-defining change.

Overpowered? It is a misuse of a perk that gives more strength than it should, so yes. Relatively more powerful? Definitely.

Blatantly dominating and common sense of "overpowered"? Not at all.

This change puts a check on the perk and ensures that it does what it is intended to do.

I can creatively "push" my way into certain places or use a new "tactic" of requesting scrolls/dropping gold-->haggling...I can (could?) also diligently enhance my armor to have -1000 AC...I consider these more MISUSES rather than creative tactics. I put offense while in illithid shock in this kind of 'bug list'.

The change maintains shock as a defensive perk, while both removing offense capability and making it something to be actively avoided.

you simply cant legitimately give the *intent *of the perk anyway. read the help file, it gives no intent at all to the use of the perk. unless viri or crypt talked about the intent of the perk, the intent is for the player to use it.

illithids do not..

get any weapon, so they do not gain any benefits associated with weapons. Their parry is like parrying with an exotic from my experience, which isnt that good.

they have crap CON

they have crap STR

they have crap DEX

this is the price they pay for...higher int, wis and leech, shock and cone of force.

leech hits 1 in 5 times, cone of force is pretty much useless for anything but an opener as it fails repeatedly (and has a 24hr timer), and we know about shock.

Now, what are zombies to a necromancer? they are their weapons, their defence, their lag, and their melee offence, and their primary source of damage. Yes acid blast is nice, and shatter can hurt but truthfully this is only about 30% of a necromancers offence.

Now other races, they have better health, dex, and str and can benefit from weapons..heck you know how many times i wish i could have the benefits of xantaks eye or some other unique item in a weapon with an illithid necro?

basically as an illithid/necro you rely on your zombies and racials to compensate for significantly less than average personal defence skills and lower than norm hp.

Now Shock, its an ace in your hand...its an oh crap im about to die time to go out or go all in. I dont see you complaining about the hp ogres get? thats all shock is...an extra bit of hp for an otherwise defenceless class at the cost of your entire mana reserve and a drain that stops you from recovering anything mana/hp or moves for eight hours.

A Drow, Human, Avian necro has advantages both stat and racially that give them advantages over illithids that are compensated for by the illithid racials. This would be my conclusion as to why its the way it is.

And yes, a skilled necro will have that calculated mind to know when to retreat in shock and when to try for that one..final..second. The benefit the race recieves for the sacrifices they make in base stats.

If going into shock equaled no more zombies, you might as well just take it out, because losing zombies is the same as saying all weapons are now rot-death for any pinnacled warrior.

While normally true, in this case the intent CAN be legitimately given. Death is to be avoided, as stated throughout the helps and forums.

For example: If I attack a mob and kill myself to keep myself from being PKed (only a mob death...I can be ressed, get my eq, stay in ghost, etc), that is illegal. I am actively seeking death (although it is to my direct benefit).

Shock works in much the same way. I can rely on my shock state (near death emergency state) to kill my opponent, rather than to maintain my own survival.

yeah death is to be avoided...but shock isn't death. NEXT CASE!

I have played many illithid necromancers.. when you are shocked you are in trouble. If you can survive and best your opponent through melee, by all means you deserve it. This is the forsaken lands people, death is waiting behind every corner, let's keep the mud exciting and not gimp classes that Celerity is pk'ed by.

youo are using however to declare an absolute..

In cases of

emergencies, Illithids enter a state of shock, in which their body divert

their mental resources directly into healing for a limited amount of time.

However, they cannot heal either their body or mind for its duration, and

therefore this is used only as a last resort to ward off death.

the help file is a guide..it reccomends it is a last resort to ward of death..which it is.. it does not dictate what you do AFTER you ward off death at all.

JUST like being a ghost, you can undo the ghost status immediatly by slaying a small mob then killing someone...WHICH has been done to me while playing my illithid necro! irony

To me this sounds like somebody got a little over confident, stuck around a little to long in a fight and payed for it.

Personally.. I can't help but laugh at this. I burst out laughing while on the phone with a friend, just reading the reasons you have for this. ...

They don't need to be changed. They're fine as is, and I believe everyone has already made their point in this thread that goes against changing it.

yeah death is to be avoided...but shock isn't death.

Hit the nail on the head, right here.

If an illithid (super egotistical creature) knows that they have the power to stave off death by converting their mental resources to physical health, why would they not take a calculated risk to finish off their opponent using that exact tactic?

Comeon people...why is this so personal?

The last time I died to ANY necro was against kanal by a powerword

before that...onileon at the beginning of 2.0 with a storm warrior with the cone of force (his creative skill or was it..gasp not balanced correctly?)

This isn't "gimping" (as stated SO many times before) and has NOTHING AT ALL to do with my "getting over confident" and dying to necros.

It is pretty shortsighted to suggest a gimp to one class to help your flavor of the week, as the flavor (in my case) isn't always the same. You'll hurt yourself in the end if you do things like that.

Mindflayer:

An old justice skill could be used to make sure you have a free 12 hours to rest. Exciting playing or misuse? A certain conclave ninja could hide ANYWHERE allowing the easiest assassinations possible...misuse or creative talent? If nothing else, losing your zombies makes things more exciting, right? This isn't personal and it really won't affect necro excitement much one way or the other. It is simply a skill misuse. Then again, death is behind every corner...

Kyzarius:

therefore this is used only as a last resort to ward off death.

JUST like being a ghost, you can undo the ghost status immediatly by slaying a small mob then killing someone...WHICH has been done to me while playing my illithid necro! irony

This is illegal also...

How is that illegal?

You're an ogre ranger, who just died. You sleep for two ticks, as does your opponent (who didn't take your things). You call a pet. You've now got between 400 and 600 hp, give or take.

Hell, if my opponent was in awful condition, and is now pretty hurt and still sitting there...

You better believe I'd finish em off.

I don't think anyone else is making this personal, Celerity. You are.

It's not overpowered. And why you all of a sudden seek to change it (as you stated, you haven't been killed by any necromancer recently), I couldn't say.

And so the common saying goes..

If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Celerity stated...

"An old justice skill could be used to make sure you have a free 12 hours to rest. Exciting playing or misuse? A certain conclave ninja could hide ANYWHERE allowing the easiest assassinations possible...misuse or creative talent? If nothing else, losing your zombies makes things more exciting, right? This isn't personal and it really won't affect necro excitement much one way or the other. It is simply a skill misuse. Then again, death is behind every corner..."

Those 'loopholes' were dealt with accordingly. THIS is not an overpowered agressive skill like you're claiming. Look at it logically Celerity, if you're in a shocked state, obviously things are NOT going your way. How are you going to state that you're going to aggressively continue that battle!? That is ridiculous. You're going to run your illithid tail off, unless the battle is close, and THAT is what makes for exciting PK.