Illithid Shock

i say we revert the shell back to all 1.0 skills/classes/rules but keep the current map, shut down the forum for 2 months, then open the forum again and poll everyone on how much fun/lack of fun they had.

1. Illithids don't have tails... I don't think.

2. Successful tactics are overpowering... deal with it, the Somalians have to.

3. Illithid = caster. Caster - MP = FATALITY!

4. Forcing them to lose their zombies would be like a BLM not being able to dual wield or two hand it when they are hurt bad, because in theory they are bleeding out/massive crushed/horrifical seared, frostburnt, or otherwise magically dissolved.

In conclusion: Altering shock would require other serious ramifications for dropping dangerously low on health to every other class. Not that I even consider ever playing a squid, but those squidies would flip out about everything's balance minus shock the way it is.

Alright it looks like we have some serious issues here:

Shock involves death (or stunned if not quite -10) (going negative in hp)...mana is used to reverse that.

Everyone else (with ONE exception I can think of) that reaches zero hp is stunned/killed.

This isn't about dropping dangerously low on hp...this is about going below zero. Altering shock MIGHT have the ramnification of altering that one other skill that MIGHT SLIGHTLY affect one other class, in the MOST rare circumstances.

Necros aren't normal casters and do a lot of damage outside of their mp.

All this change does is add a small (yet meaningful) penalty for the large perk of staying alive even though you went under.

if you're in a shocked state, obviously things are NOT going your way. How are you going to state that you're going to aggressively continue that battle!? That is ridiculous.

This is an argument that fighting in shock isn't even possible (or is never a good idea). It is definitely possible and I'm not saying it is a -main- illithid tactic. If illithid did their best to avoid shock and it had no offense capability, shock would be only slightly less rare than death itself, and nobody would get kills while within shock. If you are arguing that this problem isn't real, the change won't affect the way you play and it isn't much of a concern. I'm arguing that the loophole IS there.

1. Forcing them to lose their zombies would be like a BLM not being able to dual wield or two hand it when they are hurt bad, because in theory they are bleeding out/massive crushed/horrifical seared, frostburnt, or otherwise magically dissolved.

No, it's not.

Look at it this way.

BLM and necro fight, both drop down to 0 hp. BLM dies, gets full looted. Necro's shock kicks in, lets him flee with his life and his EQ, minus zombies.

That's how I would like to see shock, which I think is what Celerity was talking about too. Making this change doesn't change ANYTHING but the offensive capabilities whilst shocked, the defensive capabilities stay the same. In fact, if players started to play with shock this way, it would help in the sense that people aren't waiting until shock's kicked in and needing to run, then getting caught with no moves because they're drained - this way, they will be fleeing properly, undrained, and even if they DO get caught? Hey, shock as life-support.

"Making a necro lose his zombies is like making a warrior have rotdeath weapons" was a comment I saw. Exactly. So when a Warrior drops to 0 HP, he dies, loses his stuff (assume he gets looted). Illithid? Drops to 0 HP, loses his weapons (zombies) but retains his life and EQ. Sounds like a good trade off to me.

I still stand by Celerity's idea.

Dey

There is only one tried and true way to fix something that is "overpoewred":

Roll one and abuse it.

Anything short of that makes people wonder if you were just killed by something "overpowered" and that's why you're posting. Also, there are ranks for a reason. If you can't kill them at 50, you should have killed them at 40.

How about just making it so that going into shock keeps you in combat? From what I remember, when you go into shock, it kicks you out of combat and you can run away without fleeing first.

This way, there is a much greater risk when going into shock than the way it is now, without having to do the major changes Celerity suggests.

or hit them with some liggity lag on the shock.

now THAT is gimpage. then it is better that the zombies stop following the necro until the shock is over.

no fighting on in shock, but if you get away, you dont have to go get new zombies.

nothing is going to happen to shock. the Council of the Elders knows that this proposal is not in the best interest of an already cornered and pared-down race, the perk in question does in no way present an insurmountable advantage, and the proposal is unactionable in any form.

don't ask me what the Council of the Elders is b/c i just made it up, but everything else is the true ab-so-lute bottom line.

Two Illithids walk into a bar...

Dey

While I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the issue of whether shock needs changing or not, I do disagree with Celerity's statement that this change doesn't hurt a necro defensively. A shocked illithid necro without his army is fodder. The army is the necromancer's offensive power, sure, but it's his defensive power as well. The zombies lag, they fight, they cause the other person to get stuck doing things. You get attacked, you wait one round, flee, and they're fighting your zombies suddenly instead of you. That's defensive. The army is what you rely on both to kill and to live.

To be honest, I have to just agree that shock is not death. I'm sure the average illithid should know that his body will reflexively drain his vast stores of psychic energy to heal itself should it be too badly damaged, and I guess I don't really see anything wrong with an illithid working with that knowledge in battle. It's like... some vampire in a story letting himself be stabbed with a sword, knowing it will hurt like hell, but he'll live and be able to get in that killer blow himself first because of it.

First of all, let me state that I do not believe that illithid shock should be changed.

My reasons:

1. When you go into shock you are drained and have mana reduced to 0. This is all I remember from my last lvl 50 illithid necro. There may or may not be other effects. None of these are positive things.

2. 0 mana means 0 casts. You couldn't acid blast me to death if I had 1hp left. You can't put me to sleep and run either.

3. Drained means you're mana isn't coming back any time soon. Nor is your health which isn't 100% atm. Nor are those rapidly depleting moves that you are about to use up when you have to piss bolt from whoever has alredy kicked you tentacles down your throat.

4. Someone has made you go into shock. Either:

a) They already have your number. I hope you know how to re-equip.

Its a very close battle and you're pushing it pretty close to the limit to kill this person. Not a good sign when you're on one of the most offensive classes in the game... I hope you know how to re-equip because they are going to keep doing what they have been doing and kill you. If not, they are going to do a piss bolt of their own and IF NOTHING ELSE they should outrun you because they can regen their moves faster than you can. Anyone who can run gets their moves to 0 even flying/mounted. Worse if you are drained.

Now, I see Celerity's argument in two ways:

1. An RP - arguement ie 'Shock is intended to save you from death, you should not be attacking because you are almost dead.' If I was asked why I killed someone while in a state of shock, I would reply 'Death is to be avoided. I could not outrun my opponent in my weakened state and my only chance was to overcome him quickly after he put me into shock. Had I not done this I would have died and death is to be avoided at all costs.' I doubt any IMM would fault me on this.

2. A balance issue - ie people are blatantly using shock to kill people. I think this is unlikely because shock doesn't give any extra abilities (in fact quite the opposite, it makes it harder for the necro) to kill people with. Point 4b) above covers this. Going into shock has never been and never will be a good thing with the current affects that it gives.

Illithid necro is such a offensive class that I believe there will very few close battles where this would come into play anyway.

Note also that necro's can leave you lag locked vs their minions. I have personally been in combat for 6+ rounds vs golems and zombies after the necro fled.

Cheers,

L-A

Fact 1: Exploit one and they will change.

Fact 2: Talk is cheap.

edit: I spell worse that viri.

Thank you L-A for a thought out, impersonal disagreement. I really appreciate it. Now on to my thoughts..on your thoughts:

1. When you go into shock you are drained and have mana reduced to 0. This is all I remember from my last lvl 50 illithid necro. There may or may not be other effects. None of these are positive things.

The positive (and most important) thing is that you survive. Illithid shock is a major positive with some negatives.

1. 0 mana means 0 casts. You couldn't acid blast me to death if I had 1hp left. You can't put me to sleep and run either.

As you know, a lot of necro damage is from melee.

1. Drained means you're mana isn't coming back any time soon. Nor is your health which isn't 100% atm. Nor are those rapidly depleting moves that you are about to use up when you have to piss bolt from whoever has alredy kicked you tentacles down your throat.

1. Someone has made you go into shock. Either:

a) They already have your number. I hope you know how to re-equip.

Its a very close battle and you're pushing it pretty close to the limit to kill this person. Not a good sign when you're on one of the most offensive classes in the game... I hope you know how to re-equip because they are going to keep doing what they have been doing and kill you. If not, they are going to do a piss bolt of their own and IF NOTHING ELSE they should outrun you because they can regen their moves faster than you can. Anyone who can run gets their moves to 0 even flying/mounted. Worse if you are drained.

These go back to the question: Can illithid actually PK in shock? Yes. Is it difficult? Yes. Should they? If they can win (as it stands now). The mechanics are there...illithid CAN pk in shock. Is it -major- overpowered loophole? Not at all. HOWEVER, it is still there. Was this idea intended to generate a huge debate and make a scene for such a small thing? Not at all...

I would reply 'Death is to be avoided. I could not outrun my opponent in my weakened state and my only chance was to overcome him quickly after he put me into shock. Had I not done this I would have died and death is to be avoided at all costs.' I doubt any IMM would fault me on this.

One possible counter argument to this is: By the nature of you being in shock, you already failed in killing your opponent through aggressive means AND failed to show your ability to effectively assess the situation (in terms of hp management). Having already proven that you will fail your fight (you already hit zero hp), it is time to run.

1. A balance issue - ie people are blatantly using shock to kill people. I think this is unlikely because shock doesn't give any extra abilities (in fact quite the opposite, it makes it harder for the necro) to kill people with. Point 4b) above covers this. Going into shock has never been and never will be a good thing with the current affects that it gives.

Note also that necro's can leave you lag locked vs their minions. I have personally been in combat for 6+ rounds vs golems and zombies after the necro fled.

By sheer nature that the illithid can keep you lagged locked for six rounds without being there means shows you do not have enough offense to hit the zombie (causes auto flee) and the illithid probably actually has a decent chance of still killing you (if the fight was at all close).

If shock were a bad thing (as you said), it would be a FLAW, not a PERK.

As for the rareness of the problem...this shouldn't be a factor in deciding to fix it (unless it is so extremely improbable that NOBODY will do it--which this isn't).

Myrek, while that is one way to show things...if it were completely true (the only way) we wouldn't need this idea forum at all (for balancing).

you have enjoyed more floor and serious consideration than any other qualified or non-qualified player has ever enjoyed. i'm just going to lay it out now. you introduced an absolutely non-necessary weakening of a race, of all races, that do not need it. all of the big name consideration was not even needed because at no time did you have a case.

and furthermore i'm going to say that although no one wants to lose such a hardocre proposal, i'm going to consider your interests at its face value as purely personal in the sense that "just because you want it, it must be." i consider it inimical to the game's interests because if anything the upward trend of this game should be towards restoration of powerful abilities above all else and not dilution, as in this case you championed shamelessly in a bald move to of ALL things take further abilities away from a race that literally has nothing else. it has one class choice.

goldbond, you are not adding ANYTHING to the discussion with any of your posts. celerity is trying to start a contructive debate. you are trying to flush a contructive debate down the toilet. if there never was a case, then it should be easy to find good arguments. and you have still to explain why the squids would be so gravely weakened.

really. what do you call re-introducing a thread about the exact same thing 6 months apart when:

1. you havent fallen or experienced undue sorrow to the mentioned "problem."

2. you dont even play the class or race.

3. the race in question is now under unneccessary suspect to get it's last defining ability taken away from it.

4. it is a dilution proposal.

hey. for the first, we are not talking about (3) taking away shock, jsut to change it.

(1) and (2) is just asumptions you make.

and (4), what the *** does dilution mean? (sorry for not being born in an english speaking country)

in this case, dilution is used to mean weaken. You dilute something by adding something different to it. Example: Ice melts and dilutes your Jack and Coke.

ah. I see. Well, it shouldn't gimp the necros that much. Just take away the possibility to kill anyone, maybe except a plasm beast, when the shock kicks in.

Losing the zombies however, would be annoying. Thats why I presented an idea twice. An idea which everyone has completely ignored.

Have the zombies stop following and fighting for the necro until the shock is over. I have never been exposed to isolate, but I figure that is about what it does. So, lets say the necro has isolate as one of the affects of the shock.

To compensate, maybe the drain shouldn't affect the moves, only the mana and hp regen. Because without zombies and mana, the squiddie need to be able to run decently.

This way shock would be a complete survival skill, but the necro doesn't lose his zombies completely, so he has to get new ones.

Any thoughts this time then?