Done

[H&R]

Good luck killing a smart battlemage with three Drstams

How about three muscular cooks doing magical damage

[mya]

Now, really, why don't we see more Combat Elven Clerics in Tribunal

Power combo.

Combat div intervention + Mindflayer + Guard opening + Tribunal skill.

Great mealle, hard to be disarmed due to guard attacking first, Faerie fire, Curatives, Bless for Guard.

This is quite a match for any Syndicate Necro or Ninja.

Also, there should be a counter to Vanish.

In the line of Faerie Fire, or silence or blind.

[mya]

Who about just sleeping the Battlemage and then killing it.

[Mindflayer]

How about three muscular cooks doing magical damage

Between flashfire, blades, and sharpmetal I'd be surprised if three cooks from the citadel would last enough to put a dent in a battlemage.

[Mindflayer]

Who about just sleeping the Battlemage and then killing it.

Poison is difficult to dispel through manalock

[Mali]

There is a certain worm that makes a decent zombie...

[TheNewGuy]

Beer, just chill for a moment. And then maybe try playing a non-caballed char. That way you won't have to run fetch a standard in mithril ever. Then you can just run for your life and hide when you really need to, and come back when you really are prepared. You don't HAVE to be in a cabal, you know.

[Deykari]

I did the same thing that TNG just stated when I got down over the whole cabal-duties thing and it ended up being my strongest character ever.

Give it a try sometime, anybody, if cabal warfare gets you down. The freedom of being able to fight on your own terms, 100% of the time, often can MORE than compensate for cabal powers.

Dey

[tassinvegeta]

This is for the Imms. Are we sure the Travens really need toning? I mean this is the first necro that has done so well since Azun. And yes its been a very long time. Ever since then I've felt so bad for necros because it felt like they were constantly getting shafted by bugs and that blm caltraps/deathweaver combo. I've faced necros that had absolutely no chance against my warriors/dks and if they mess up or lose a single battle there zombies are gone. I never played necros and even I felt bad for them. I know if I spent hundreds of hours and deaths trying to get 2 lvl 10 malforms and when I finally get there they are nerfed I'd probably not want to play the class again considering the problems I'd still have against alot of classes and the time it took for me to get there. I'd ask myself this question. Why should I play a class the reaches its power peak lightyears behind most classes after putting in an infinite amount of more effort just to end up on the same playing field as them in the end? I ask myself this alot when I decide to play a dk over anything else. I was just hoping for an intelligent conversation as to why they are deemed so overpowering before we really won't see a necro at all anymore and pretty much have a dead class.

P.S. Kurvikhel does need to take his butt to sleep. I am all for the change to keep necros with Traven zombies from being logged in for more than 24 hours at a time.

[Zhokril]

The change we made regarding zombie's keeping their original size after logoff changed the equation some. And Traven's aren't getting toned - you will see. I, and most of the IMMs, have spent time watching the combo in action. Its not as though the current setup doesn't have its weaknesses (that isn't what we're saying), but it leaves very little chance at all for far too great a percentage of the character combos out there. All combinations are meant to have strengths and weaknesses against other combos; in this case, we believe the combination has (too much) strength against too many combos. It is mainly only those with very high damage output that aren't fighting an uphill battle (warriors/rangers/dks, as you mentioned) which is a bit too narrow a category for an environment meant to have versatility for everyone.

[Djriacen]

Poison is difficult to dispel through manalock

Then you get bashlocked.

[Aulian]

if you are getting bashlocked as a mage' date=' your not prepping right. I saw Kurvikhel, and Zaulael go back and forth for days. If your bmg is getting beat on, chances are your not playing them right, I know I did not play mine right AT ALL.[/quote']

Couple of things.. I played an avian bmage against Azun..

As a bmage:

1. Use force shield, go for the blinds.

2. You have a number of spells that will attack the whole group, think about which is the best.

3. If you can, time your fights so you are fighting at the best time for you (sear)

4. Spell up your blood guard, then as kurvikhel is running in, ORDER the blood guard to attack zombie. This will bring all of his zombies in to attack the guard and not you. Follow with flashfire IMMEDIATELY after they are all engaged. - this may bring you some success.

As a normal char:

Recently I was also playing a low health char (elf) that was not a mage and I managed to skirmish with Kurvikhel for a long time before he actually got me. If he attacks you, do NOT wait to get bashed, flee immediately and run then reengage, lets face it, kruvikhel is a cocky bastard and the times I fought him he didnt have sanc and I managed to get him to aweful before I died (although he didnt enter shock *frown*). He is not impossible to outrun, I did it MANY times. Just use your head when doing it.

EDIT:

On zombies: Lets not forget that zombies have recently been changed so that they can now cast their spells in combat! I think this should add some versitility somewhat to the whole situation.

On another note, we must remember that a necro has 40 spells at his disposal, the fact that it only takes him to walk in, attack and acid blast a couple of times to get kills is not really acceptable. This may weaken them somewhat but they are still EXTREMELY scary if they are played with patience and care.

[Raargant]

Zombies do not (they better not) cast spells in combat; the change only applies to DK charmies. Necros with three casting zombies would be overpowered as all heck...

[jibber]

I would definitely hope they don't cast spells in combat. Holy crap.

As for manalock, force field, and reflective field:

One would use all three for an array of different reasons. I think I would only use manalock on an invoker, force field on bashing army of zombies, or even reflective field on the bashing army of zombies (for more damage and more resistance to mundane weapons)

Whoever suggests using manalock against a zombie doesn't know what he or she is talking about. Especially since the way manalock works (I learned the hardway), it would only help you SOME of the time against dispel magic, especially versus a necromancer with high spell power and high melee power.

Can't wait for the zombie change. Should balance things back up really quick.

[Aeva]

Oh no! One of the most dominating players in this codebase's history wrecked me! NERFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm fine with it. Is it nasty? Yeah. Does it suck to be on the other end? Yeah. Do i hate getting wrecked before I can even try to adjust? Yeah. Is the power spike huge for the class+cabal when it comes? Yeah.

Have you ever tried to maintain a three-Traven posse? Probably not. Have you ever had a Syndi L? Probably not. Do you really think that anyone else with the same race/class/cabal combination could find this much PK success over time and circumstance? Probably not. If you do, you're either not too smart or haven't played this game for very long.

Cheers to said player for bringing everyone to their knees.

[WagesofSin]

I think another problem is the Illithid shock ability. Keep the travens, just make illithids getting into shock lose their zombies. I think that evens it out fine. As it is now, that shock is like an additional 500 hp. So let's say he has base 1000hp(easy to get) when he goes into shock he gets a 500 boost to it. 1500 hp is ridiculous to burn through, especially with such zombies attacking you. It's the shock that imbalances things IMO. I doubt Kurv would be the power house if he went non-illithid. This is coming from a player that killed him once and shocked him twice.

[khaede]

I'd have to disagree with you here...at least when you didnt lose them if you logged with them in the same room, its not hard to keep the posse at all. Especially with group recall items. Even if you are just an average player, it requires a smart player to seperate you before they are overwhelmed, and this is coming from someone whos done it.

[-Totenkopf-]

Alright, I guess I can have a bit of a say here as I've fought Kurvikhel quite an arseload (well, at least tried to). For some time there, he had lost his travens, and wasn't really much in a fighting mood, infact, I used to have to chase him and his group of possies all over winter and other areas just to get a fight out of him (He killed my character well before I was 50, and I am still after revenge). Even when he had two travens and a drstam he wasnt exactly forthcoming to battle, even though I was bountied, he would sit in deso, behind a locked door that the guard doesn't repop for (I know this, because I went chasing him there when he was getting a traven after I killed one of them). I personally think travens arent that hard to get. He can more or less get them solo (he just waits for a worldshift, goes there straight away whilst there arent many mobs to fight). Then he'll sit in there for hours on end waiting for strength damned cooldown or possibly even the next shift, who knows, absolutely inaccessible by anyone. This is what FRUSTRATED the crap out of me. It screams overpowered, if having three of them makes him so much more powerful then not having three to the extent he wont fight without them, however, obviously, it makes him much more of a machine (and alot less likely to kick the can) if he does. This happened for more or less a week, attacking his cabal, and doing all sorts to try to get him to come out.

Anyway, now he has got his three travens again. They seem to take about 200-250hp per round through sanc + prot evil. Three of them dirt kicking and bashing is more or less a death wish. I'd hate to fight him on a class minus prot shield. I've never been a big believer in brews, and still dont use the tactic, I think its lame. I guess I am oldschool. In my playing time, this is a rather recent development (though people have been doing it for probably 5 or more years now). 1.0 and 2.0 it was unheard of.

Anyway, back to necros. It actually takes alot longer to kill those travens then you'd think. They can take quite a bit of pain. Its easy enough to seperate him from the zombies. When the opportunity has arisen, Ive resorted to locking myself behind doors, summoning and killing a zombie. This only worked once, then he disappeared into deso again for hours, got himself another zombie (and then probably another after a reboot) and I was in a worse position then I had started in. I almost killed another zombie but I was more or less fighting him and two goons in a refined space, and they ended up wearing me down, so I had to flee.

Three of those zombies is quite rediculous in my opinion, and I was playing a character that would probably be considered strong against his combo. I'd refuse to fight him with a meelee. You'd end up lag locked and steamrolled. As I said, with 3 of them, I was taking a pretty reliable 200-250 damage a round. Thats 4-5 rounds before death. If he lands a dispel, thats an insta-death.

Would be interesting if people were restricted to having one of any certain zombie, then people would need to find three different zombies or worth. Now, if you had one zombie that dirt kicked, another that bashed, and another that tripped, that'd be great. Three that all do it. $*!# THAT. They seem to give far too much of a power spike. I notice the necro in question goes from tolerable to an absolute weapon when they are used. I haven't died to him minus the pre-50 4 round wipeout, I have even had him up against the rails a couple of times until he had three such zombies again. I fought him again when he had three and it was certainly ALOT harder. I got massacred (albeit in the presence of a group which I brought upon myself, once again, tryin to get a fight in).

People who scream isolate. I THINK you'll be sorely disappointed. Isolate doesn't work against things with charm immunity (at least it never used to). I assume, zombies, being undead, are immune to charm (Ie, sleep etc). There may be a reason why noone has ever seen the spell work.

I could be wrong on this call though, I should probably investigate myself.

Anyway, I more or less log everything nowadays (saves any controversy over in game issues), so if anyone wants some logs of battles or whatever (more so the imms for balancing purposes) let me know.

PS: 700+ hours syndi skill - not fun. Maybe that needs to be adjusted a little. 700 hours is like 350 minutes or so right, thats like 6 hours. Thats best part of a week or playing for me, haha.

[Dale]

Heh he nearly one rounded me, one and a half rounds taking well over 800 hp and killing me. But then again he caught me with no sanc half naked and no weapon or shield. In all honesty I thought it was hilarious seeing as how I have taken several pointless easily avoidable deaths with my current pinn.

[mya]

People who scream isolate. I THINK you'll be sorely disappointed. Isolate doesn't work against things with charm immunity (at least it never used to). I assume, zombies, being undead, are immune to charm (Ie, sleep etc). There may be a reason why noone has ever seen the spell work.

I could be wrong on this call though, I should probably investigate myself.

Squids, are resistant to mental spells and have 25 INT. Think it if a mental Dwarf.

Add a few mental saves and you are on the max saves line.

This is why it appears to not work.

I have personally isolated Necromancers to solitude

[Grim_Reefer]

Gimme a break, behind all the dirt kicking, disarming, bashing onslaught of hellspawned zombie bastards and elite syndicate know-how, Kurvikhel is just a squishy wuss.

[Sirax]

Its a shame weve come to this "overpowered combo" post again, Kurvhikhel (sp) is a skilled player and as the leader of syndicate should be feared. But having seen the damage them travens do to an elven cleric it was plain scary, if not for portal he would have been toast in a couple of rounds. A bit more variety in the zombies like the new changes to charmed mobs would be more than welcome.

[Mmm Coffee]

Thank you Toten - I'm glad someone else has experienced the exact same frustration level with this. And it's exactly like you say, if he doesn't have 3 Travens, he doesn't bother handling his cabal duties....which for a LEADER should be punishable my instant demotion IMO. But this wasn't meant to be a flame against that player - I know he has a lot of game knowledge and is well respected in the PK arena. My beef was with the Travens and now, the reason I won't be playing anymore, is because of that Syndi L skill. The frustration level incurred with that outweighs the enjoyment of playing.

I've always felt the Syndicate cabal as a whole was basically an excuse to just PK and rarely RP. I've also felt that with the size of the player-base, 7 cabals is one too many...and that Syndi should be abolished. Leave the bounty system in place for players to collect them. I'll go out on a wire and bet that eliminating the Syndi cabal would lead to players hanging on to their pinn'd chars a lot longer.

Anyway, if I get around to it, and if anyone is interested, I'll post the log of my final fight so you can see how it all went down.

[Guest emp_newb]

so what are you guys gonna do when kurvikhel is raping you guys with Warlocks, Smorgis, and Drstams? Someone posted that he only used his army to do it. Correct, because he need not do much else. What do oyu think is gonna happen when he starts sleep, malingyou to a 3 room locked area? Oh man, sleep, poison, plague, blindness AND the murder command are OP. We better tone them before Kurvikhel starts to abuse those mechanics too!

On a side note I still agree that travens are monstrous, but I think people see an uphill fight and do not want to bother fighting agains't the odds. Fighting Kurvikhel is not hopeless. It is not even a death sentence. Personally I am ALOT more paranoid about Kaylia than I am Kurvikhel.

[Mmm Coffee]

Emp_Newb - that argument is just plain hogwash. Fighting a necro with non-Travens is already an uphill struggle for many classes.

Sleep is pretty easy to avoid. Mals and afflictives are how he SHOULD be fighting.

I don't think anybody on this thread is complaining about uphill battles...what we don't like is a one-sided fight.