haymaker

[Pali]

Haymaker should have close to the same success that chii bolt does.

If haymaker required the kind of charging up that chii bolt does, I'd agree with you.

And my testing has always found silence/blasphemy to work on mobs. You just need to make sure you're using the right one on the right mobs... try blasphemy on the harbormaster in Miruvhor if you don't think it works.

[Old_Bastard]

Hmmm

Charging is preperation fluff. Chii also comes with another effect that increases its usefullness.

What charging does prevent is spamming. So....that being said. Why not limit a haymaker to the same restrictions of the once per hour after a successful land?

[TheNewGuy]

Making it as successful as chii bolt would be ridiculous. I ain't saying it doesn't need a buff, but it should definitly not be THAT effective.

[Old_Bastard]

hmmm

Yet chii bolt is fine as is huh?

[f0xx]

Yet chii bolt is fine as is huh?

How can you even compare chii bolt to heymaker? That is plain stupid.

One drops shield + armor + protective shield for a class that relies mostly on lag.

The other drops sanctuary, stances, predictions and almost ANYTHING.

Suggesting to make haymaker as successful as chii bolt while keeping it's other affects is as I already stated above, plain stupid.

[Twinblades713]

How can you even compare chii bolt to heymaker? That is plain stupid.

One drops shield + armor + protective shield for a class that relies mostly on lag.

The other drops sanctuary, stances, predictions and almost ANYTHING.

Suggesting to make haymaker as successful as chii bolt while keeping it's other affects is as I already stated above, plain stupid.

Not plain stupid. A special kind of stupid.

[I've Killed for Less]

Zerks suck. Its a shame. If they were half decent, I would most likely play one. I had a stone giant zerk about a year ago with EVERY skill mastered. Only problem was no matter what weapon or combo of weapons i was wearing (dual wield or two handed) he would not do more than 2 hits a round. even raged. even against a mob or a person with no shield or weapon. It was redic.

[Chayesh]

Zerks suck. Its a shame. If they were half decent' date=' I would most likely play one. I had a stone giant zerk about a year ago with EVERY skill mastered. Only problem was no matter what weapon or combo of weapons i was wearing (dual wield or two handed) he would not do more than 2 hits a round. even raged. even against a mob or a person with no shield or weapon. It was redic.[/quote']

Now that's a Mya quote if I ever read one.

[KRins]

Zerks suck. Its a shame. If they were half decent' date=' I would most likely play one. I had a stone giant zerk about a year ago with EVERY skill mastered. Only problem was no matter what weapon or combo of weapons i was wearing (dual wield or two handed) he would not do more than 2 hits a round. even raged. even against a mob or a person with no shield or weapon. It was redic.[/quote']

Hard to believe... Borderline impossible with any version of hitroll...or you know...dirt kicking.

[I've Killed for Less]

Im not an idiot. Not when it comes to fighting in FL at least. I even showed a few people because even they didnt believe me. I had very decent hit and damage roll. Still. 2 hits per round. it was insane.

[Mudder]

Yeah I agree with IKFL. Zerks to seem to have very few attacks per round. Even when dual wielding, 3 was a happy number for me to get.

When hasted, finally I would see a decent amount of attacks.

I've seen thieves with better melee output. Seriously.

EDIT: RE: Mya: Charge lag does NOT last four rounds. Except maybe vs. a paladin (It's been awhile since I've been pally charged) but even a mino charge lag is only 2 rounds... Until he flees and reinitiates via abusive tactic.

[KRins]

3 hits a round...I've seen thieves blow that completely out of the water. Don't even get me on pugiling rangers. I routinely land 4 to 6 a round...zerks are worse than broken if they aren't landed at least 3 hits a round on mobs dualling.

[Mudder]

Well 3 is the norm, sometimes I've gotten 4(vs mobs). 5 at max(oddly rare). Never hit the actual maximum of 6 unless I was hasted, even then it wasn't usual.

Whereas I have seen a thief land 4/6/5(In that order) attacks as what would seem the norm.

EDIT: Two handed weapons? 2/1 will probably be the best, maaaybe 3 if your lucky.

[Old_Bastard]

amusing

Amusing how I don't suggest making Haymaker anything like chii bolt, yet a number of posts respond to that. I was making a comparison to similar type dispelling skills for two comparable melee classes. To rephrase what I previously suggested (for those who find reading a difficult task): if it is landing less than 25% of the time, increase success rate and limit use to a timer.

The reality is that haymaker itself should have some use, but should not be "overpowered". Additionally, the chii bolt mechanics need a little looking at as well. Rolling a berz to see how haymaker has changed over the past couple of years.

If you are so against balancing out (making some better and some worse) skills in the game, why?

Some complain and some offer suggestions (or alternatives to previous suggestions).

[HouselessRogue]

Chii bolt is incredibly effective. I would say OB's 90% ratio is spot on.

[L-A]

As do other stuffs i will not refer, because i, frankly, do not wish to be Haymakered on my Clerics.

Great attitude right there - 'I'm not going to tell you because you might be able to use it on me!!!!' Unfortunately for you I'm here now and I'm going to spill the beans all over the floor....

Haymaker is dependant on a LOT of factors. Some have been mentioned (thanks Mudder) already. Others have not. Here's the easiest way to think about it:

Haymaker is like any other physical attack with a few extra things that add to its success or failure. Anything you would normally do to your opponent in order to hit them more should be done with haymaker. If you're not doing these simple things then you're just knee-capping yourself in regard to landing a haymaker.

Now, think about a berserker. Is he/she nancing around the fields, making daisy chains and singing kum-by-ah? No. Berserkers are frantic maniacs, frothing at the mouth, looking for someone or something to hit with whatever weapon happens to be in their hand. If you're berserker ISN'T looking like this you had better get skippy and apply the necessary berserker skills to get him in this state quick, fast and in a hurry.

Now, sometimes you're just going to miss - so if you were hoping on being able to enter hay;slam;slam;slam;slam then you've come to the wrong place. Go back to playing giant warriors. Just because you hit doesn't mean you're going to remove the effects that you want. Or any at all. Or that you won't get rid of your roar and leave his sanctuary. This is just the nature of the skill. Get used to it. Winning with a haymaker requires a whole lot more than just typing in the command. You're going to get two rounds of lag, so you had best hope you didn't just get dispelled. Now, if he flees, puts sanc up and comes back you just wasted your time. Make sure those haymakers happen AFTER your opponent has used a skill that lags them at least one round. That way you get a chance to beat them senseless for at least a round before they run off. Believe me, a round with a berzerker when you don't have sanc can be MIGHTY painful.

Finally, you need to make sure that you're maximising your chances when you do land that haymaker - dual weapons perhaps (not always)?. Any other skills to reduce his chances of defending? Berzerkers are a very tactical class - you need to plan your dive and dive your plan. Its just that simple. You have a lot of skills - but if you're not using them correctly you're just wasting your time. You won't have THAT many rounds to make use of your skills either so you'll really want to get on top of that plan - is haymaker or headbutt more useful? Roar? Weapon or shield cleave? Can you outdamage with straight dirt;slam? Have you considered weapon choice (you MUST be choosing weapons as if you are a warrior)? Do you want to kick dirt? Do you want to prevent your opponent kicking dirt at you?

Not just as simple as dirt;rage;slam eh?

L-A

[jibber]

Zerks suck. Its a shame. If they were half decent' date=' I would most likely play one. I had a stone giant zerk about a year ago with EVERY skill mastered. Only problem was no matter what weapon or combo of weapons i was wearing (dual wield or two handed) he would not do more than 2 hits a round. even raged. even against a mob or a person with no shield or weapon. It was redic.[/quote']

I can probably agree, if it was under one condition. Did you forget to practice second and third attack? :-)

[jibber]

EDIT: RE: Mya: Charge lag does NOT last four rounds. Except maybe vs. a paladin (It's been awhile since I've been pally charged) but even a mino charge lag is only 2 rounds... Until he flees and reinitiates via abusive tactic.

I think she was factoring in the 2 rounds for protective shield on top of the charge. Mya, you'll have to make yourself more clear here.

[oldskooler]

First off, thank you for all the responses.

Secondly, clerics, invokers, everyone with dispel magic have a whole lot more in their arsenal than dispel magic. As a berserker in a fight I can either, rage of course, dirt, roar, bodyslam, headbutt or finally HAYMAKER.

I have logs I can show anyone of me, nicely decked, using pills, herbs and such trying to haymaker different classes. I have honestly missed over 80% of the time. I do not BS I do not lie, anyone who actually knows me can attest to that.

I am a pretty darn good pker, as ppl will find out with my next char since I've just come back. And this is absurd to me to lose this many battles. I usually open with charge, because then I can get one skill off before the opponent can respond. To me using charge/flee is as about as cheap as a certain vamp and a certain fire giant warrior who are now famous using something and then just lagging or bashing. So I usually haymaker or headbutt to follow my charge. Especially headbutt on clerics since if I get calmed I am as good as dead. Sometimes I TRY to open with haymaker after the opponent flees. You can ask masokant, mephisoleer, koortu and especially Hlecla who I missed haymaker a total of around 16 times between too battles upon. And I am much larger than a half-elf. I knocked two spells off one time, that's it. How am I supposed to keep my things, be anything of a threat or even a contender when I have my hands tied. So many old classes have been re-buffed to overpower them and they can't hold a candle too the new classes. So...

PRETTY MUCH I'D GET RID OF BERSERKERS OR RE-BUFF THEM BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY THEM. WHY KEEP THEM AROUND? FOR A NOVELTY? I PERSONALLY AM PAINED TO SEE A ONCE VIABLE CLASS BE FORGOTTEN ABOUT AND LEFT TO GATHER DUST.

Once again, thank you to everyone. I just wish immortals would respond to a few of our posts, after all the players make the game and I think we voice our opinions pretty well.

Edit: I took out the names of the vamp and fg warrior as to not offend an imm or a player and I had to fix a spelling error.

Lytholm: Had to apply the red marker - I did cabal. It looks like one of my learned collegues did the qraces info. If you would please familiarise yourself with the forum rules via divine mandates it would be appreciated.

[Guest emp_newb]

Nothing has changed with zerks to make them worse. They actually got a tone up. As far as haymaker, it is not supposed to land like dispel magic does. It is not going to. L-A outlined that zerks are not haymaker lag lag lag lag. Zerks require more finesse than most classes do. Cept maybe a battlemage but that is another story.

Bottom line is this, if you keep using skills the same way and they are not working, maybe you should try using them differently? I mean if I fail 9 of 10 haymakers fighting an elf pally, Im gonna try a different set of circumstances.

It is harder to land haymaker on high dex races, it just is. Using your 15-18 dex as a giant class vs 20-25 on smaller races, you are at a disadvantage on the haymaker. Look at Lmathr vs Kalvidar. I landed a few haymakers vs him. Now pan over to Lmathr vs Ilendriel(**** you pali it is only an example) I failed so many haymakers and bodyslams. Why you say? Ilendriel had a host of luck and ac gear, while kalvidar dressed as a more common fighter class.

[Psycho Child]

I honestly think bards are worse off in pk than zerks.

[Guest emp_newb]

Pfff. Bards are frickin amazing.

Uber throw of vuln hitting doom

Their best defense comes when dual wielding

FOUR SEASONS (this spell is fan friggin tastic)

Hide

steal

nice buffs (very nice)

[oldskooler]

Nothing has changed with zerks to make them worse. They actually got a tone up. As far as haymaker, it is not supposed to land like dispel magic does. It is not going to. L-A outlined that zerks are not haymaker lag lag lag lag. Zerks require more finesse than most classes do. Cept maybe a battlemage but that is another story.

Bottom line is this, if you keep using skills the same way and they are not working, maybe you should try using them differently? I mean if I fail 9 of 10 haymakers fighting an elf pally, Im gonna try a different set of circumstances.

It is harder to land haymaker on high dex races, it just is. Using your 15-18 dex as a giant class vs 20-25 on smaller races, you are at a disadvantage on the haymaker. Look at Lmathr vs Kalvidar. I landed a few haymakers vs him. Now pan over to Lmathr vs Ilendriel(**** you pali it is only an example) I failed so many haymakers and bodyslams. Why you say? Ilendriel had a host of luck and ac gear, while kalvidar dressed as a more common fighter class.

All I know is tactics, and I try a new one each time I fight. Believe me this char is so uncharacteristic of me. I used to slaughter much of the playerbase using just a chieftain sceptre and a shield as a shaman with no problems. I am not mr.fancy gear, hell I don't even know my way through anything but steel. But I can think my way through almost anything it's my forte in life, my genius. I have tried every type of weapon combination, using shields, dual wielding, double gripping. I have tried using enlarge, and anything I can think of in the way of herbs, pills. I have +dex just in case it somehow gets lowered as well as +str. I have 40/40 hr/dam and around 70+ or so each I think when raged.I am now grasping at straws. I don't think anyone here has really given any viable suggestions on how to do things better, but just tell me to do it better or as PALI basically said I don't want you to do it better because then you might actually be able to kill my cleric. Thanks for the assistance.

[Croyvern]

Bards are like herbs, they get rolled, they get smoked, and in the end, and before they are completely finished, they get lost.

[Guest emp_newb]

RE:Old Skooler

You want some suggestions? More hit/dam. Perhaps a few years back that was good hit/dam, now it is common in the mid thirties. You need to have at least 80/80 after a rage to be a real terror. Saves are wholly useless because no matter what they are, a spell WILL go through. ANd if your only pulling sanced decimates/mauls it won't matter anyway. Weapon choice is absolutely key. Always try to exploit vulns with a highly offensive rated weapon. I can think of several flails and axes that will hit vulns. Several are also socketed.

Haymaker is not something to rely on. CLeaves on the other hand are FAR more important. I have found that Roar, and Cleave are very useful together espescially when wielding a two hander.

Also being lazy with your buffs is not viable anymore, you HAVE to buff your ac that extra 80, you have to get those enlarge items, you have to be flying, you have to have RELIABLE sanc (**** vials) You need to know your running patterns, and make an effort not to run the same way all the time.