haymaker

[Celerity]

If you want more speed, try a faster race. Look at the pk logs for information about equipment and how fast they are striking. Compare the dwarf and ogre in the zerk vs zerk pk log along with their equipment. Look at their haymakers, cleaves, number of attacks, damage output, and see what was landing (especially as weapons were switched) and why.

[Psycho Child]

Pfff. Bards are frickin amazing.

Uber throw of vuln hitting doom

Their best defense comes when dual wielding

FOUR SEASONS (this spell is fan friggin tastic)

Hide

steal

nice buffs (very nice)

Buffs are not that nice.

Battle song is decent, but little better than frenzy.

Legend of Hercules is no better than giant strength.

Shield of ancients is no better than shield.

Good tidings? Woop de do.

Mystery of the Unicorn is the best buff they have, and thats random. If you could select it, it would be a lot better.

Four seasons...its aoe so you have to pick and choose when to use it.

And lets not forget, if you are using four seasons you don't have your weapons equiped, so you are down to two defenses. So you lose a majority of your damage (all of your melee) to cast a mediocre spell.

Throw is nice, being able to hit vulns is nice. If they had autothrow it would be a HELL of a lot better.

I could go on about Bards for a lot longer, but I won't derail this thread anymore.

[Guest emp_newb]

you can cast four seasons, and wield your weapons again though.....

[Psycho Child]

And by that time any melee class had eaten your lunch while you were playing with your equipment. IF they didn't just laglock you which you have ZERO protection against... Shall I continue? And don't get me started vs Casters...

[Guest emp_newb]

dude. Helmsley was a beast. So was Jarl. He was taking out reaver vampire consistantly

[Dale]

What about berserkers haymaker?

[mya]

Has anyone considered that opening with haymaker may reduce their chances to actualy land it ? (Don't ask me, i don't play meeles.)

I wrote this:

"Just to remenber if he is lagged from spells and you are both low HP, you hit haymaker, he flees you charge and he is DEAD.

4 rounds of damage + charge damage ? A lot to go throw without sanctuary."

Mudder read this:

"EDIT: RE: Mya: Charge lag does NOT last four rounds"

I never said charge lagged 4 rounds. Just that 4 rounds without sanctuary + charge damage can get a PC that is at low HP, killed.

You haymaker just before the round.

Round happens and cleric is spaming.

Cleric inputs a ray.

Clerics notices his spells are down and he just inputed a command.

Cleric Panics and types Flee.

Round happens.

Cleric flees.

Zerk follows and charges.

2 rounds lag for cleric.

[Pali]

Zerk follows and charges.

2 rounds lag for cleric.

Only one if the zerk's not a mino.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Good tidings? Woop de do.

Luck plays a much larger part than most think. It is entwined into just about everything.

More luck is never a bad thing.

[Psycho Child]

I agree more luck is never bad. I'll trade you for -7 to svs vs spells any day though.

[Guest emp_newb]

Ok here is a big boost.

My zerk Lmathr fought ALOT of zerks. the two I did not beat where Ilendriel and (apparently) pamiyn. Now I did talk to pali a bit over aim because I love hashing over pks after the fact, espescially if it is witha good sport. Now the one thing Ilendriel had that none of the others I fought had was alot of luck eq. I did not post alot of my other pally fights cause it was just a straight laglock for the win, but Ilendriel was able to effectively negate that with a bit of luck eq honestly.

[Pali]

I also noticed that flamestrike blind and wrath curse effectiveness went up quite a bit with my +luck eq as well. Ilendriel's luck bars were pretty much always entirely full, and I'm certain it helped him out tremendously.

[Mudder]

but just tell me to do it better or as PALI basically said I don't want you to do it better because then you might actually be able to kill my cleric. Thanks for the assistance.

That was not Pali. It was Mya that said it.

dude. Helmsley was a beast. So was Jarl. He was taking out reaver vampire consistantly

Since I was the Vampire Reaver at the time of Helmsley I would like to correct this. While he was tough to fight once he got E, he never consistently took me out. He might have ever landed one kill? Before he was E I would steamroll him. Consider that E abilities play a large part in PK.

EDIT: Celerity: Faster races(dwarf) actually miss haymaker more often. The formula is Str, dex, size, luck. I won't go into more specifics but it is near impossible to get the best of all of those except with perhaps Ogre. Resulting in many many misses no matter what.

RE: Emp: It is rather insulting to tell a veteran player to wield weapons your enemies do not know. Use vuln weapons. That is PK 101 and obviously he has done it. Why not inform him on the secrets of using sanctuary? You say Zerks require finesse, guess what? What do you mean by finesse? Running around, using detect magic, timing your abilities when it would hurt them most? All classes require that. Unless your a decked warrior vs a thief.

[I've Killed for Less]

OK. So. Zerks Need to be toned up. Can we all agree on that?

On a side note. I have killed quite a few ppl with my evil avian bard, and with ease I must say.

If given the choice, I would say bards are much better for PK then zerks.

Flat out.

Truth.

[Iusedtobesomebody]

Unless your a decked warrior vs a thief.

[Pali]

That was not Pali. It was Mya that said it.

Heh, thanks for correcting him. Personally, I welcome the idea of clerics dying more.

[I've Killed for Less]

All classes require that. Unless your a decked warrior vs a thief.

I've killed MANY a decked warrior as my thieves. MANY.

[Psycho Child]

OK. So. Zerks Need to be toned up. Can we all agree on that?

On a side note. I have killed quite a few ppl with my evil avian bard, and with ease I must say.

If given the choice, I would say bards are much better for PK then zerks.

Flat out.

Truth.

Yes I agree zerks need to be toned up.

I've killed people of every class, with every class. This does not in anyway mean anything about balance. I've one rounded a vamp with a gnome voker before. Guess vamps need to be toned up too eh? On a class vs class comparison I can't think of a single class I would fare better against as a bard than I would as a zerk. As I said, I am currently doing more research on current state bards. My opinion MAY change. We shall see.

[I've Killed for Less]

Yes I agree zerks need to be toned up.

I've killed people of every class, with every class. This does not in anyway mean anything about balance. I've one rounded a vamp with a gnome voker before. Guess vamps need to be toned up too eh? On a class vs class comparison I can't think of a single class I would fare better against as a bard than I would as a zerk. As I said, I am currently doing more research on current state bards. My opinion MAY change. We shall see.

Trust me, it will, if you do things right.

[Psycho Child]

I'm more than willing to read a pm of your thoughts and anyone elses who takes Bard PK seriously. Once I have conducted my research I will post a thread on my proposed remake, or if for some reason I have been so drasticly impressed that I feel they no longer need one (unlikely) I will post a thread on that.

[Guest emp_newb]

dbl post

[Guest emp_newb]

That was not Pali. It was Mya that said it.

Since I was the Vampire Reaver at the time of Helmsley I would like to correct this. While he was tough to fight once he got E, he never consistently took me out. He might have ever landed one kill? Before he was E I would steamroll him. Consider that E abilities play a large part in PK.

EDIT: Celerity: Faster races(dwarf) actually miss haymaker more often. The formula is Str, dex, size, luck. I won't go into more specifics but it is near impossible to get the best of all of those except with perhaps Ogre. Resulting in many many misses no matter what.

RE: Emp: It is rather insulting to tell a veteran player to wield weapons your enemies do not know. Use vuln weapons. That is PK 101 and obviously he has done it. Why not inform him on the secrets of using sanctuary? You say Zerks require finesse, guess what? What do you mean by finesse? Running around, using detect magic, timing your abilities when it would hurt them most? All classes require that. Unless your a decked warrior vs a thief.

I am so insanely tired of all the INSANE amount of whining this forum has degraded to. There is a circle of people constantly whining about skills they cannot use being useless or broken. Ya know what man, you cannot play a zerk at all. Not because the class is broken, but because you suck with them. Someone had to say it I guess I will take it up.

And yes, I DO need to say use unknown and vuln weapons. Obviously someone is having trouble with it. Mephisoleer was decked, and had a mid to higher level malform (was titled). He attacked my rank 45 ogre zerk who was in mithril. Guess what happened? He died. I have had quite a few times as a zerk that it was not an uphill battle.

Vs pallies I found it a rather easy time (except you pali you bastard), Vs non communers, i had a very easy time. Versus melee that I could exploit a vuln on, I had a very easy time. Vs smart warriors who used their skills properly I had a hard time.

I swear to god these posts are happening with 100x the frequency they EVER have. Unless you can supply me with logs of zerks performing 100% as they should, and still getting utterly tooled, I do not wanna hear this crap anymore. Zerks are fine, they need nothing but a smart, skilled player.

You want proof zerks are fine? Look at Wuzor vs Gorbak. That pk was to the WIRE, and Gorbak lost because he failed to dual wield, not because zerks suck. So unless you can explain to me why gorbak is an exception (which I am sure SOMEONE will try to do) this zerk crap needs to just die.

Again I fall back onto the fact that just because you cannot do **** with a class, does not mean it sucks. I cannot play: Ninjas, Dks, Bmgs, and necros. Not because those classes suck, it is because I cannot get into playing them. I just cannot play with the tactics they need to be effective.

[Old_Bastard]

berz

Rolled, trained and played. They need no changes. The alteration to headbutt and roar more than make up for a low success rate on haymaker. I would be interested in what some people consider a fully trained character/berz. That might be part of the problem.

[Dale]

Whatever, you could take a shotty trained zerk to pinn and do decently. Training is way overated.

[jibber]

I find nothing wrong with berserkers. I've pinnacled many of them, and have played balls to the wall with all of them. I may have sucked, but I had my fun, and I think they're a perfectly viable PK class, and could probably win in almost any situation. I've STEAMROLLED warriors while decked in mithril and rusted medallions. You just have to do what every other class does.. choose your place of battle, time your attack, and make use of that very secretive thing called sanctuary. God help us if we give out the location of the sacred vials.