Myrek!

[-Totenkopf-]

The penalty for being a moderate char is quite high. Only noobs or people who suck at PK will play them, and thus, it shouldn't be so bothersome.

I haven't read all of the topic, but also, a comment on the RP problem. Why would it be a problem? You can't, that's it. So from a RP pov, you would if you could. Just as you would kill level one characters if you could.

I call your bluff.

I've seen experienced moderates already. Newbs wont be the only one to play them. Experienced players will play them to capitalize on their bonuses. The fact that death means very little to moderates. You don't lose stuff all. There will be people who will play moderates to their advantage. Through my experience, 75% of people that play this game play it to 'be the best'. They'll use almost any loophole, bug or low down tactic required to get the upper hand. Exactly like how experienced players make adventurers to gain advantage. There is no real reason (minus a bit of extra OOC PK advantage) to make an adventurer as an experienced player. Yet it happens every day.

Also, I may be a hardarse who likes my full loot and saccing, but I don't do it to complete newbies. I don't do it to someone I just completely steamrolled. I do it to people who do have ability (ie, like you mudder) and they still crack a **** about getting sacced. At the moment, this constitutes at least 75% of the playerbase. As I've already mentioned, I am sure I have looted less items then have been looted from me, even though my kills far outweigh my deaths. If it were a newb that whined about getting stuff sacced (which it never is, because I don't sac newbs) I wouldn't much care. However, its after I kill experience (and probably veteran) players and end up with a rant of being trash because I looted some stuff or sacced a thing or two that rubs me up the wrong way. These sort of people I almost feel the need to kill a few more times, each time, looting and sacing a few more things, until they have nothing. Their ranting and crying in game is 99% OOC. All this means is that when you finally land the kill on that vet moderate character, after spending two hours of your LIFE chasing them all around Aabahran, you're going to gain little reward. As has already been mentioned, even by the staff. Moderate are not meant to be newb only. I would much prefer it if they were however, as this would stop any kind of abuse from vet players.

Time will only tell though. I'll reserve judgement for in a few months. I think its a good idea in principle.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I call your bluff.

I've seen experienced moderates already. Newbs wont be the only one to play them. Experienced players will play them to capitalize on their bonuses. The fact that death means very little to moderates. You don't lose stuff all. There will be people who will play moderates to their advantage. Through my experience, 75% of people that play this game play it to 'be the best'. They'll use almost any loophole, bug or low down tactic required to get the upper hand. Exactly like how experienced players make adventurers to gain advantage.

Harsh. Experienced moderates are likely to be those with little playing time who don't want to gather gear, but still want to be competitive PK wise. However, they lose out on cabal ranks and qrace/class/etc....

Comptetive at best, but never the best of the best.

Adventurers are oranges compared to the moderate tier, which is of course, apples.

EDIT: on a side note, time will tell more, until then, we're all beating a dead horse.

[Grim_Reefer]

The TTPK system (when it finally does what it's supposed to, because it will take time) should get most people over to the Ruthless category. It will eventually put us back where FL started, but with a larger playerbase. It's the Cycle of Death. That's the theory anyways.

A boy goes to his dad and says, "Dad, I'm having trouble understanding theory and reality in school. It's a tough subject."

The dad says, "Well, go into the house and ask your mom, sister, and brother if they'd sleep with the mail man for $500, 000.00."

Boy goes to his mom and says, "Would you sleep with the mailman for five hundred thousand dollars?"

"Hell, yes, " says the Mom.

Boy goes to his sister and gets the same response.

Boy goes to his brother who has to think, but eventually comes to the same conclusion as the mom and sister.

So, the boy goes back to his dad and tells him what they all said.

"Well," says the Dad, "In theory, we're sitting on 1.5 million dollars. In reality, we're living with two whores and a fag."

Valek, before you posted that, you were one of the members I thought was tooled out super-dumbass. You have redeemed yourself in the eyes of the Reefer with that.

[TheNewGuy]

You pay a price to be a moderate char. One could argue whether it is high enough or not, but I doubt people who can PK well will prefer them.

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

I think one of the points missing in this argument is that in today's world (this is not CF, late 90's AR or '00-'03 FL) with the already limited playerbase, if this happens too many times the player will not play that character again, leaving the world empty, one character at a time. Eventually the winner will stand alone, get bored and also leave (congratulations, maybe your dick feels bigger). We've seen this trend increase dramatically over the last half decade.

That's just my take on it.

And I hesitate to put this cause I don't want to put your feathers up but I would also like to note that most of the truly best old school players, 'cept for on occasion Odoacer(charmie whore , didn't really full loot that much. They were here for the competition. One reason this whole ball got rolling (FL) is the ability of AR's Illusionists to haste charmies, grab a mate, haste him and full loot everyone in the game ten years ago.

[Imoutgoodbye]

hehe....it's obviously bed time...Mudder, gotta pick you for this...just havin' a little fun...maybe there's a message in here somewhere, though. For everyone.

Mudder:

You're a slob, It's such a bore,

Your underwear strewn on the floor.

Valek:

and you're a packrat, most extreme,

our house is full of magazines.

Mudder:

the toilet's broke, and yet I bet,

his majesty ain't fixed it yet.

Valek:you're one to talk, sleepyhead,

and get your fat *** out of bed.

(chorus)

both:

oh but in the eyes of god,

we said our vows before the pews.

"not until death may we part"

Valek: so until then I'm stuck with you.

Mudder:

you swore that you'd be true to me,

but gave be infidelity.

Valek:

why should I give a tinker's cuss?

she was your sister, what's the fuss?

Mudder:

well then, let's propose a truce.

what's good for gander is good for goose.

Valek:

hey now that's different, you took to bed,

my favorite dog and all my friends!

(chorus)

oh but in the eyes of god,

we said our vows before the pews.

"not until death may we part"

so until then i'm stuck with you.

oh but in the eyes of god,

we said our vows before the pews.

"not until death may we part"

Mudder:

this is my curse, i said "i do."

better or worse I'm stuck with you.

Mudder:

you poked my eye, i wear a patch.

i should've given you one to match.

Valek:

did you forget, you forgot me back?

you chopped my thumb off with an axe.

Mudder:

you drowned my kittens one by one.

you looked like you were having fun.

Valek:

you stabbed my mother, in the chest

with a korean bayonet!

(chorus)

oh but in the eyes of god,

we said our vows before the pews.

"not until death may we part"

so until then i'm stuck with you.

oh but in the eyes of god,

we said our vows before the pews.

"not until death may we part"

Valek:

this is my curse, i said "i do."

lest you die first i'm stuck with you.

Mudder:

and now i lie here in the grave.

i pray to god my soul to save.

and in the darkness of the tomb,

i'm glad i'm lying next to you.

Valek:

and as i lay here 6 feet down

my body buried under ground.

in this dank, and dreary cold,

i'm just glad i'm not alone.

(chorus)

oh but in the eyes of god,

we said our vows before the pews.

"not until death may we part"

so until then i'm stuck with you.

oh but in the eyes of god,

we said our vows before the pews.

"not until death may we part"

Mudder:

i'm not sad i said, "i do."

both:

i'm just glad i was stuck with you.

This is not my work. It is the Lyrics for Stuck With You by Voltaire.

[f0xx]

You have time in your hands it seems

[Evangelion]

This is the way I see it, right now.

Advantages of Playing Moderate

- You cannot be full looted. Only two rare items can be looted from your corpse with every kill, and no non-rares (meaning you never lose your backpack full of consumables or that handy re-equip set)

- You cannot be killed multiple times, unless you re-engage your enemy or attack their cabal

- You essentially have gained access to a skill called protection vs thieves

- You don't have to worry about having your bounty collected, because you'll only lose two items instead of six

Disadvantages of Playing Moderate

- You cannot go past Veteran in any cabal except Herald

- You cannot loot more than two rare items from a ruthless character

- You can only carry a limited number of rares (which, in reality, is not that limited of a number)

The benefits far outweigh the cost, in this situation.

I believe it was said that they can hold up to 12 rares? There are 18 equipment slots, so that means that two-thirds of your equipment is rare. A full Adeptus suit (and we'll include the Terminators, CT Spike, and Fleshworks for the sake of discussion, so let's call it a Gear suit) is 10 items. That leaves you with two more rare items, plus 10 of the best rares in the game. And you can only lose 1/5 of that suit per death. How to correct this? Put a level restriction on the rares they can hold. Don't let them hold any rare or unique above their own level.

As far as the cabal is concerned... statistically speaking, must of our players don't MAKE IT past veteran in a cabal. Between rage deletes, playtimes that clash with cabal IMM's, etc., most players only make it to veteran, and there they sit until it's time for a new character. How to correct this? Significantly increase the benefits of trusted, and allow the autopromotion system to go up to Trusted for ruthless characters, or allow the vote system to return for promotions up to Trusted.

Like I said, these are my feelings right now. Perhaps the system will work a lot better than has been suggested, and perhaps not. Only time will tell. But these are things to consider in the meantime because right now, as I said, the benefits of playing a Moderate character far outweigh the costs.

[Psycho Child]

Nice.

[Mudder]

RE: Valek: Why did you make me the wife? We both know the truth..

[HouselessRogue]

Here is my view on the full loot conundrum.

I am somewhere between Pali and Mudder. I really wish people would tie looting to RP instead of full looting with every character. If, as a player, you decide you will loot after every kill then it has ZERO RP value. Now, if you are an Elven Paladin Knight and you finally drop that pesky Nexus Vampire... then crap... loot. You are mortal enemies and you don't want to leave his wares so he can rampage when you aren't there to punish him. But, I do not see how you can full loot everyone you kill and feel comfortable with that. In my opinion you are just being an ******* and taking the fun out the game for others. If you really need to be a complete **** like that you might want to reevaluate your real life and start going to the gym, hitting a heavy bag or strangling stray cats.

[Mudder]

I was going to write up a long reply' date=' but frankly a statement like this is as much an end to discussion as invoking faith is and I have no interest in wasting my time.[/quote']By all means, post away. I said that because I have nothing else I can really say. I see your point, you see mine. I'm not sure what more we could say.

What he said about Vets crying about losing a couple items.

Then we agree. You'd be very surprised how many people have cried about me taking a few of their items. I mean 1 or 3. Wtf? I took 3 things, get over it! Lol. Makes me want to full loot them.

Though there are many people that full loot everyone just for the sake of it. You're obviously not the type but they do exist and they piss me off.

EDIT: As I have said many times. I am not against full loots for tough battles. I don't do it, but I am not against it. I am against full looting for the sake of it. I am against mutlikilling people who have no eq. I am against full looting them again and saccing that eq. I just find this behavior trashy.

[Mali]

You know you wanna play. Now you can be known as Hardcore Myrek.

[myrek]

i actually rolled a character... then deleted it and uninstalled zMud.

I hear the cry "We want to have as many people as we did in our glory."

Then I see the action: do everything different from the way it was in our glory.

I know I'm over-simplifying, but that's to keep this short. I have a longer response including why this system is unfair and an alternative solution in the works. But I have to go spend the weekend with the woman.

Have a great weekend,

Myrek

[Pali]

I see your point' date=' you see mine.[/quote']

I do not think you do see my point, but I am not sure how I could explain it better. I agree that most of the time, people who multikill someone and loot/sac them every time are just being dicks. What you seem incapable of recognizing is that sometimes, it isn't done to be a dick. Sometimes it is done because one truly feels that, to remain in character, it HAS to be done. It should not be done to your entire PK range, but it should be done when there is a valid personal hatred between two characters. It's something that can't apply to everyone you kill, because everyone you kill is unlikely to be someone you have that level of hatred for. This is something that develops in game, not something you plan out as part of your RP from the start.

Maybe I'm just the only one who still sees PK, and all actions taken within it, as an extension of RP rather than a separate thing. Yes, there are trashy players who just love to PK and go with what Raar correctly titled as Counterstrike RP. But I can tell the difference between that and someone who keeps coming after and full looting me while maintaining a high level of RP. Counterstrike RP annoys me, and has caused me to stop playing numerous times. The latter, however, I have no complaints with and think SHOULD happen.

[Mudder]

What it seems you are talking about is a healthy rivalry between two competent PKers. As I have stated numerous times, I have absolutely 0 problem with a full loot in that case. I don't personally do it, but it makes sense to me.

The problem is if that person has 2 pieces of eq. You kill them, then sac those two pieces of eq.

I am sorry Pali, but to say, "Sometimes it is done because one truly feels that, to remain in character, it HAS to be done." Is not a valid statement. Why? Because it NEVER has to be done to remain IC. RP is much more fluid than that.

Perhaps it has to be done for you to play your character the way you want, but it is still a decision and in a very large part playstyle.

[Imoutgoodbye]

The problem is if that person has 2 pieces of eq. You kill them, then sac those two pieces of eq.

I am sorry Pali, but to say, "Sometimes it is done because one truly feels that, to remain in character, it HAS to be done." Is not a valid statement. Why? Because it NEVER has to be done to remain IC. RP is much more fluid than that.

RP for a Scourge is simple: Make life miserable for someone else. Most people only respect their shinies, most of the time even more than their life. I enjoy RPing Lawful Evil more than any other evil, but to be the consumate villian just doesn't seem to cut it with most people. You have to TAKE from them and no one seems to care if they die and you leave them their equipment. I HAD to take down a guy two more times after his initial death because I left his equipment and he kept coming back. After the second time he came back, I full looted/sacced.

Player Style (me) has NOTHING to do with my character because I have so many facets to my personality that I like to enlarge one aspect of it, not make it too complicated. What happens when I put my Anger foremost? My Jealousy foremost? My Joy foremost?

Rearranging my personality is fun. I shouldn't have to limit that where PK and someone else's "feelings" are involved.

[Mali]

If I kill you and make you have to delete or log off, I feel like it is a personal victory. I like being able to hurt the player behind the character. When you feel rage, anger, or if you feel weak and sad it is because of what I did. Thats so much more real than just PKing and making it easy. It is no fun until someones feelings gets hurt.

[Pali]

What it seems you are talking about is a healthy rivalry between two competent PKers.

No, I am talking about a personal hatred of another character. How good a PKer he is compared to me makes no difference. He deserves destruction, and so he shall have it.

I am sorry Pali, but to say, "Sometimes it is done because one truly feels that, to remain in character, it HAS to be done." Is not a valid statement. Why? Because it NEVER has to be done to remain IC. RP is much more fluid than that.

Perhaps it has to be done for you to play your character the way you want, but it is still a decision and in a very large part playstyle.

So, when you have an enemy that your character has an intense, burning hatred for... you'd leave him his EQ (knowing, in character, that he is going to just come and get it back) and think that it is still remaining in character? You don't think your character would do everything possible to hinder that person, to make his new life as miserable as possible for the short time it will exist?

I cannot see any in-character reason NOT to full loot someone I hate.

[Mali]

Everyone full loot Mudder, and force him onto the Blue Team!

[Raargant]

Well, this was brought to my attention, so chew on this:

A disadvantage Ruthless players will have. Finally taking down a moderate that was a severely tough battle (don't laugh, it will happen) and then having another Ruthless come along and kill you and take ALL you have.

You'll have to excuse me if I crank it up a notch myself on the looting on the Ruthless tier.

Edit: I never confuse me with my Scourge character. RP is RP. War is war.

How is this different from how things were pre-change? IE, person A kills person B after a tough battle, then person C comes along and kills person A. In both cases, you lose all your ****.

[Imoutgoodbye]

How is this different from how things were pre-change? IE' date=' person A kills person B after a tough battle, then person C comes along and kills person A. In both cases, you lose all your ****.[/quote']

Pre-change, nothing. I'm just slightly jealous of the Moderate having less to risk, but then again, they have less to gain. I've been running everyone's arguments through my head.

Unfortunately, sometimes I'm wiped out and all the mental juggling catches up to me. I also have no problem admitting that I'd be lucky to be in the top 20% of FL based on intelligence. However, as a Reverend, my wisdom score is out there.

[Croyvern]

With all do respect, even if some of you deserve little of mine. It seems to me there has been a tremendous amount of complaining, always why this new system is not fair to vets. This is my first, and will be my last post in regards to this. Most of the people I hear complaining, will have a character within the next few weeks who is completely decked. Most of those this system is in place to "protect" will likely not be so well equiped a year from now. I have been here as long as most of you, been involved with the base code longer than any of you could imagine. I have watched time and again as some decked player reaks havok through his pk range. Do they care what their opponents are wearing? ONLY if an item or two is better than theirs. There you have it. And if your killing a player just to trash his mithril suit and opal rings, then consider this, "You are the problem that created the need for this solution."

[Pali]

And if your killing a player just to trash his mithril suit and opal rings' date=' then consider this, "You are the problem that created the need for this solution."[/quote']

All I was ever asking was that if I kill a player and have an RP reason to trash his mithril suit, it should be understood that is why I do it.

[-Totenkopf-]

I don't mind the new system, my only worries are that VETS will abuse it. I couldn't care less about not getting to full loot newbs, I generally dont anyway. I full loot (well, I find it VERY hard to get a full loot in with recent changes) people who give me hell to fight and especially those who mouth off if I take a couple of things (and I know they are experienced). I have had a number of them since my return. What I am not going to like is finding a moderate with a full suit of adeptus (well, as much as they can carry, which, IMHO is way more then enough to be a tank, I've seen Imseik and Masokant demolish people wearing about 3 or 4 ORDINARY rares), thus obviously making him an experienced character to be able to gather all these nice things, abusing the system to make a 'power character'. I have already seen vets with blue PK's. I can tell they are vets, and they are making the combos that will be 'power combos' with limited eq. Thats another issue. Warrior moderates are going to be severely disadvantaged compared to shaman moderates. I guess the number of rares will vary to help with this situation, ie, warriors will be able to equip more rares?

Thats my concern. I am not concerned about not being able to rape little kids, make them cry and steal their goodies. I don't do it anyway. I've seen a number of characters (ahrmm, usually ones with beasty malfs) that DO multikill newbs. Seen it with my own eyes, meanwhile they'll log at the sight of a real challenge. I do it sometimes, if I don't have the time to invest, or aren't sufficiently prepared, I'd disappear when a tough adversary logs on. There is no use me buggerising around if I am just going to fall straight on my arse due to not being prepared, have to log mid combat or distracted by real life matters to the point where my mind isn't on the game (last few days in general actually, my grandfather had an unsuccessful operation to remove cancer and now has to undergo chemo with a MAX of 60% chance of success if he can handle all three treatments). So, I am a little stressed out. Then I got a heap of work paperwork building up, which I should be doing, but have about 500 other things to sort out as well. As such, I've just had a 4 day weekend, and logged near on zero hours. I tend to be capable of playing more after work as I don't really have the time or hours of light left to do anything else anyway, but this puts me into the 'dead' timezone, where noone is on, so it soon grows boring.