Some possible mods to the 2 tier PK system

[myrek]

Disclaimer: I only know what I've read. I may have missed something.

Why the new PK system is wrong and bad:

1. The LOSER in training wheels gets to re-attack, but the victor does not. The system punishes the victor. Is Obama at lvl 60 here? That is total crap. Plus, it can be abused to easily: Attackers in training wheels might not kill the traditional character, just wound them or maim them. So that leaves the traditional character is a vulnerable position, open to easier defeat by another traditional character. One group could send training wheels after training wheels at a real target until they are worn down and then finish the real character off with another traditional character. The group of them can get all of the victim's gear and only ever risk 2 rares. It really isn't fair.

2. People wearing training wheels should not get the privilege of joining a cabal. Period.

3. Not needing to re-equip is supposed to be a benefit to the character in training wheels. But it isn't. It is one of the most of important skills a player can develop. Besides, didn't we have a big discussion on this very forum about how screwed up life insurance is? That is was wrong for the dead to have their equipment protected? Maybe I dreamed it.

Why the logic behind the new PK system is flawed.

Why do we PK?

RP. Period.

If it isn't for RP, the IMMS need to get involved with that specific character/player. There is no way to code a system that checks if the kill had proper RP.

Why do we loot?

1.To have what they have.

2.To punish them.

3.To gain a tactical advantage over the opponent, preventing them from attacking you again soon.

Why do we full loot?

1.To have what they have.

2.To really punish them.

3.To really gain a tactical advantage over the opponent, really preventing them from attacking you again soon.

The training wheels do nothing to address these facts. In some ways, it works against its own goals. If Character A has 3 things I want, I have to kill him, wait, and kill him again. If I am trying to create a tactical advantage, I have to have my cohorts kill him and take more of his stuff.

You cannot fairly stop looting by stopping looting. The only way to do it fairly is to block the reasons for looting.

Possible alternative solution.

You can replace the whole 2 tier Pk thing and the changes about looting with one simple thing. The killer cannot attack the killed for 15 minutes. The killed cannot attack the killer for 24 real hours. That is fair. And the killer has little to no legitimate reason to attack the killed again (outside of warfare activities). Of course, if I can only kill someone wants. They should get locked out of their corpse for 120 seconds. Spoils to the victor!

Suggestions in the event that my other suggestions are ignored.

1. Cabals used to be the realm of the elite and the up-and-coming. Characters on training wheels should not have the privilege of being in a cabal. By letting them in, the value and the reputation of the cabals falls quickly.

2. If they aren't losing rares, what is the punishment for dying? It is supposed to suck. So make it suck. Drop the number of deaths down to 15 or something. Hell, do it for everyone. Start with 15 deaths. Add 10 as a reward for joining a clan and another 15 for joining a cabal. Let's make death scary.

Personally, rares are rare. Death is supposed to release rares back into the system. As I've read it, these training wheel characters keep nearly everything. That needs toned down.

I think I hit the high points. I probably forgot a couple things.

[Chromatic]

Disclaimer: I only know what I've read. I may have missed something.

Why the new PK system is wrong and bad:

1. The LOSER in training wheels gets to re-attack, but the victor does not. The system punishes the victor. Is Obama at lvl 60 here? That is total crap. Plus, it can be abused to easily: Attackers in training wheels might not kill the traditional character, just wound them or maim them. So that leaves the traditional character is a vulnerable position, open to easier defeat by another traditional character. One group could send training wheels after training wheels at a real target until they are worn down and then finish the real character off with another traditional character. The group of them can get all of the victim's gear and only ever risk 2 rares. It really isn't fair.

2. People wearing training wheels should not get the privilege of joining a cabal. Period.

3. Not needing to re-equip is supposed to be a benefit to the character in training wheels. But it isn't. It is one of the most of important skills a player can develop. Besides, didn't we have a big discussion on this very forum about how screwed up life insurance is? That is was wrong for the dead to have their equipment protected? Maybe I dreamed it.

Why the logic behind the new PK system is flawed.

Why do we PK?

RP. Period.

If it isn't for RP, the IMMS need to get involved with that specific character/player. There is no way to code a system that checks if the kill had proper RP.

Why do we loot?

1.To have what they have.

2.To punish them.

3.To gain a tactical advantage over the opponent, preventing them from attacking you again soon.

Why do we full loot?

1.To have what they have.

2.To really punish them.

3.To really gain a tactical advantage over the opponent, really preventing them from attacking you again soon.

The training wheels do nothing to address these facts. In some ways, it works against its own goals. If Character A has 3 things I want, I have to kill him, wait, and kill him again. If I am trying to create a tactical advantage, I have to have my cohorts kill him and take more of his stuff.

You cannot fairly stop looting by stopping looting. The only way to do it fairly is to block the reasons for looting.

Possible alternative solution.

You can replace the whole 2 tier Pk thing and the changes about looting with one simple thing. The killer cannot attack the killed for 15 minutes. The killed cannot attack the killer for 24 real hours. That is fair. And the killer has little to no legitimate reason to attack the killed again (outside of warfare activities). Of course, if I can only kill someone wants. They should get locked out of their corpse for 120 seconds. Spoils to the victor!

Suggestions in the event that my other suggestions are ignored.

1. Cabals used to be the realm of the elite and the up-and-coming. Characters on training wheels should not have the privilege of being in a cabal. By letting them in, the value and the reputation of the cabals falls quickly.

2. If they aren't losing rares, what is the punishment for dying? It is supposed to suck. So make it suck. Drop the number of deaths down to 15 or something. Hell, do it for everyone. Start with 15 deaths. Add 10 as a reward for joining a clan and another 15 for joining a cabal. Let's make death scary.

Personally, rares are rare. Death is supposed to release rares back into the system. As I've read it, these training wheel characters keep nearly everything. That needs toned down.

I think I hit the high points. I probably forgot a couple things.

EASY: To retain new players.

[Deptore]

I think you're missing the point that the system is in place for new players, RP characters, and people who can't play often. Equiping a character is much different for someone who plays 70 hours a week compared to someone who might get 10 or 15.

The characters who are on 'training wheels' are limited to the number of rares they can have total. Making those two rares even more valuable than they are for a traditional player. Yes this system hurts the victor, but what bonuses do they really need? They just killed someone and got their equipment.

Furthermore- Hardcore players are most likely going to be vets or new players that want the full challenge. (since we're not swarming with new players) I'd say it's safe to say it'll be full of people who know how to get all of that equipment and where to get it plus the safest way to get it. Compared to the new moderate character who was lead there and has no clue where he just was.

Cabals are not a treat to be held over a character's head, nor are they simply for elites. They are a group formed of people with common goals, they train people who are new, they make people feel like a part of something. Also, since none of our cabals are bursting at the gills with members I'd say it's fine for some new players to come in and have some fun, wouldn't you?

[myrek]

Cabals are not a treat to be held over a character's head' date=' nor are they simply for elites. They are a group formed of people with common goals, they train people who are new, they make people feel like a part of something. [/quote']

I disagree with most of your post, but this part almost made me gasp.

Yes they are. Cabals ARE a treat to be held over a character's head. They are for elites. Groups formed of people with common goals are called clans or factions or whatever they just added. (Kudos for adding that by the way.)

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe under this administration, cabals aren't a device to improve the gameplay for vets. That would explain a lot.

[Questioner]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the actual concept of a Cabal is to provide a rallying group for characters who have similar goals. True clans and factions are groups formed by people with such common goals, but Cabals are the next step in that thought process. The Cabal skills are rewarded on the basis that by empowering its members, they will promote the power and reputation of that group/Cabal.

Being an elite is fine Myrek, but I would enjoy meeting more players who have the potential to bring fresh ideas and outlandish concepts that you nor anyone else has come up with.

[Pali]

Unfortunately, Myrek, FL now is not what FL used to be. The uncaballed are the exception, not the rule, at 50 - it's pretty much become expected that chars join cabals now (and there's a fair bit of whining about how "hard" it is to be uncaballed). And our playerbase has shrunken to the point where the mud either needs to sacrifice some of its hardcore nature so that it appeals to more people, particularly modern gamers who can't handle a learning curve on a game or death actually meaning something (when's the last time you saw a hugely successful game that had a limited number of lives/continues?), or the mud will slowly die.

As much as I hate it, the game dying isn't the better option here.

[Aulian]

If you are looking for your ultimate pk or something that should be 'elites' only then just fight hardcore characters?

If you want to fight the hard fight, there is 0 reason why you dont have to. Its your choice. There are plenty of vets out there, and none of them are playing moderate characters. Whats the point in repeatedly steam rolling a novice player of an opposing cabal?

Whats the point in not allowing them to join something that is very much a large part of the game?

Go out. Hug a tree and stop being so bloody negative.

[Aulian]

Unfortunately, Myrek, FL now is not what FL used to be. The uncaballed are the exception, not the rule, at 50 - it's pretty much become expected that chars join cabals now (and there's a fair bit of whining about how "hard" it is to be uncaballed). And our playerbase has shrunken to the point where the mud either needs to sacrifice some of its hardcore nature so that it appeals to more people, particularly modern gamers who can't handle a learning curve on a game or death actually meaning something (when's the last time you saw a hugely successful game that had a limited number of lives/continues?), or the mud will slowly die.

As much as I hate it, the game dying isn't the better option here.

Take his advice. This is from someone that like us, learnt the hard way. But in this day and age it is impossible for a MUD to stand up to games. MAYBE in the FUTURE when the mud is GROWN we can start making it harder to get into cabals..

I dont know if you noticed, but there are a hell of a lot more VETS playing then there are anything else. So getting into cabals is mostly elites, its only us playing........

WHICH IS THE PROBLEM

[Mudder]

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe under this administration' date=' cabals aren't a device to improve the gameplay for vets.[/color'] That would explain a lot.

If you think in 1.0 Cabals were for Vets/Elites only you are largely mistaken and lost in "the glory days."

That was never the case. Hell, I got caballed before I ever got my first 50. I sucked. I didn't know anything about PK. Why did it take me so long to learn? Because I had jerks multikilling me (I mean 10 times within 1 hour) while I am trying to get eq, they would full loot/sac everything I had. Also, I was not even lvl 50.

That is NOT a learning environment. It holds the newbie down and halts progress. Do you need a tactical advantage of a full loot? Doesn't sound very elite to me.

EDIT: I should add: A full loot on a character that cannot achieve "decked" status nor anything past V in a cabal. Typically a character that would rather focus on RP and is most definitely not a powergamer. (All power gamers strive for T/E/L in cabal)

[Twinblades713]

Sounds weak and insecure.

[Malchaeius]

Disclaimer: I only know what I've read. I may have missed something.

Indeed you have, friend. I will attempt to shed some insight. If you are pressed for time, please just read the last paragraph.

Why the new PK system is wrong and bad:

1. The LOSER in training wheels gets to re-attack, but the victor does not. The system punishes the victor. Is Obama at lvl 60 here? That is total crap. Plus, it can be abused to easily: Attackers in training wheels might not kill the traditional character, just wound them or maim them. So that leaves the traditional character is a vulnerable position, open to easier defeat by another traditional character. One group could send training wheels after training wheels at a real target until they are worn down and then finish the real character off with another traditional character. The group of them can get all of the victim's gear and only ever risk 2 rares. It really isn't fair.

Well. George Bush is definitely not at level 60 here. Hence we will not run a system that only gives breaks to those who do not need it and never asked for it.

Political foolishness aside, look at it this way:

• The moderate tier != the newbie tier. We have said that several times. While it may be more palatable to newer players - there are several veteran players who simply do not have the time to play ruthless. Two who have recently voiced this opinion are Iyorvin and Dizz.
  
• Even if the moderate character defeats the ruthless character, the Ruthless only stands to lose two pieces of equipment and can immediately seek revenge. What about that is unfair?
  
• Immortals can remove protections whenever we see it fit. Any moderate character that stalks their killer or mouths off to their killer will have their protection stripped immediately. We will not tolerate any abuse of the system.
  

2. People wearing training wheels should not get the privilege of joining a cabal. Period.

I disagree. As a 1.0 veteran, you know that cabals offer players an excellent chance of exposure to an atmosphere that can foster roleplay as well knowledge they may not receive elsewhere. If cabals were to prevent newer players from joining - it would be an atrocity. I am sure many players remember their first caballed character - and subsequently how much their game improved. Furthermore, moderates are bound by the same rules and regulations as ruthless characters. They are required to perform the same tasks. They will be judged in the same manner in terms of entrance and retention. Yes, being in a cabal is a privilege, but it is not a privilege accorded only to veteran player. As long as the character shows the drive, determination, stability, and roleplay necessary, why should they be stopped from joining a cabal?

Caballed characters are meant to be role models, and since these players will not be promoted past Veteran, they stand a great chance to learn from those around them. Not to mention, once again, that the moderate tier is not meant to be the newbie tier.

3. Not needing to re-equip is supposed to be a benefit to the character in training wheels. But it isn't. It is one of the most of important skills a player can develop. Besides, didn't we have a big discussion on this very forum about how screwed up life insurance is? That is was wrong for the dead to have their equipment protected? Maybe I dreamed it.

You misunderstand. The problem is not being able to re-equip. Those who choose the moderate tier will have to learn where to get their equipment as much as anyone else. In the age of the Wii, casual gamers are deciding that while they love this game, they simply do not have the time to do certain things. Certain gamers do not want to spend half of the time that they are logged on re-equipping, only to be steamrolled by some pk-padding veteran who refuses to go after other threats - or declines to even speak a word to them.

Why do we PK?

RP. Period.

If it isn't for RP, the IMMS need to get involved with that specific character/player. There is no way to code a system that checks if the kill had proper RP.

Why do we loot?

1.To have what they have.

2.To punish them.

3.To gain a tactical advantage over the opponent, preventing them from attacking you again soon.

Why do we full loot?

1.To have what they have.

2.To really punish them.

3.To really gain a tactical advantage over the opponent, really preventing them from attacking you again soon.

The training wheels do nothing to address these facts. In some ways, it works against its own goals. If Character A has 3 things I want, I have to kill him, wait, and kill him again. If I am trying to create a tactical advantage, I have to have my cohorts kill him and take more of his stuff.

Reason 1 is valid.

Reason 2 and 3 are biased by OOC. You are not punishing the character. That character just received the ultimate punishment: they died. Which would be more of a trauma to you? Getting killed? Or miraculously coming back from said death to find out that someone burned your favorite pair of loafers? I would imagine that you would just be happy to be alive again.

No. When you "punish them" you are punishing the player. You are gaining a tactical advantage over the player. You are sticking it to the person on the other side of that monitor.

As to your concern over a moderate having three things that you want - have you ever considered asking them? If you are evil - extorting them? Demanding that they hand it over to you, and if they do not they will face your wrath? Furthermore, as an experienced player, you are telling me that there are three items that if you do not have you simply cannot do without? There are times where we are nitpicky just to be nitpicky. I do not make these suggestions to be confrontational about your roleplay. I simply do not believe the situation is as hopeless as it may seem.

As to coming up with a fair way to enforce the reasons for looting, I have a suggestion:

We can require you to write a three paragraph essay on why you killed and looted someone after every kill. That is stupid you say - well if you have ever hated someone, you know that you can talk or write for hours about why you do not like them. If you hate someone enough to kill them, strip them naked, and burn everything they own, I do not think three paragraphs would be too hard to procure.

In case I have some of you concerned "Oh man, he is going to make us WRITE stuff?", my suggestion is not completely serious. To be clear though, if I pull anyone up randomly after a kill, they better have a good reason.

In closing, the best response I can give you - if you read nothing else - is this:

Aabahran: The Forsaken Lands is a game and a community. We all play this game for fun. Some find fun in different aspects of the game. Some enjoy the more conversational forms roleplay more than player versus player combat. Others enjoy playerkilling more than conversational forms of roleplay. This is not to separate playerkilling from roleplaying - as your playerkilling should be a part of your roleplay - but it is to state the obvious: some enjoy emoting more than bashing. Yet, for nine straight years, one style of play was able to force itself on everyone else. The ruthless-I will full loot you to soothe my ego/punish you/ruin your day/because I am a prick-style went unchecked. Many players who would otherwise bring much life/spice/variety/roleplay to the game were told "If you do not like it, leave, because there is nothing stopping me from doing this you." So they did just that. Does the MUD gain anything by this? No. Now I am very much against coddling players or spoonfeeding. However, in my opinion, this change does neither. No one likes to see their characters die. Someone once posted a thread about why dying sucks in this game more than others - it is because you have a connection and a vested interest in your character. So these casual players; these players who may not have the time to spend half of their time equipment hunting; these players who enjoy other aspects of the game; now that you cannot force your style of gaming on them - I am to understand that this is unfair? No. I must respectfully and vehemently disagree.

[One Way Up]

Why is it that all the IMMS have such good penmanship? Is it like a requirement or something to be able to pump out a full-on thesis paper on command, or what?

Seriously, though: I enjoy reading most of the IMMS reply here on the forums as much as I enjoy interacting with them IG.

Even when I am not playing the game, I check in on the forums quite often for a healthy dose of wit and, on occasion, posts like the one above this.

[Aulian]

Why is it that all the IMMS have such good penmanship? Is it like a requirement or something to be able to pump out a full-on thesis paper on command, or what?

Seriously, though: I enjoy reading most of the IMMS reply here on the forums as much as I enjoy interacting with them IG.

Even when I am not playing the game, I check in on the forums quite often for a healthy dose of wit and, on occasion, posts like the one above this.

I think the requirement lies in the brain area.

[-Totenkopf-]

If only it was as easily as saying moderate characters can only attack moderates, and hardcore hardcores. Then neither will have an advantage/disadvantage against their opponent. Alas, this would mean moderates would have to miss out on rares all together.

[Mudder]

Well put Malch, I especially enjoy this part:

George Bush is definitely not at level 60 here. Hence we will not run a system that only gives breaks to those who do not need it and never asked for it.

[myrek]

Short on time. Short reply.

Reason 2 and 3 are biased by OOC. You are not punishing the character. That character just received the ultimate punishment: they died. Which would be more of a trauma to you? Getting killed? Or miraculously coming back from said death to find out that someone burned your favorite pair of loafers? I would imagine that you would just be happy to be alive again.

No. When you "punish them" you are punishing the player. You are gaining a tactical advantage over the player. You are sticking it to the person on the other side of that monitor.

We can require you to write a three paragraph essay on why you killed and looted someone after every kill. That is stupid you say - well if you have ever hated someone, you know that you can talk or write for hours about why you do not like them. If you hate someone enough to kill them, strip them naked, and burn everything they own, I do not think three paragraphs would be too hard to procure.

Here's my big three from your reply.

1. It isn't ooc... maybe it was before my characters saw other characters get resurrected thousands of times. In the land of magic, magic is the norm. In all the time I've played, I've never seen any one not resurrect. The characters come back. The mobs come back. Everything comes back except rare gear.

2. And we didn't all full loot back in the day. I didn't start doing that until some guy I had just killed, killed me. And then it happened again and again. After that, I decided that leaving people ready to kill was simply a dumb idea.

2a. And the punish thing was supposed to refer to drow vs elves, savant vs warmaster, and the like. Or for those damn characters that die then talk trash.

3. Write to justify a kill? You just made my skin crawl by even mentioning it. That is yet another thing that was going on in other muds 10 years ago and why I chose FL.

In my defense, I thought I said that cabals were for vets and up and comers. You had to bust your *** to get in. It wasn't a matter of doing copious automated quests and getting votes. Besides, if there isn't "the next level of gameplay," why stay? You got them in the door with promises of cookies, but what keeps them here? The have nothing to achieve. What goals can they have? Something freely given has no value. Cabals should have value.

And in response to someone else's comments. They didn't help you once you were cabaled. They helped you BEFORE you got cabaled or you wouldn't have been good enough to get in. That's just like our clans.

[myrek]

Unfortunately, Myrek, FL now is not what FL used to be. The uncaballed are the exception, not the rule, at 50 - it's pretty much become expected that chars join cabals now (and there's a fair bit of whining about how "hard" it is to be uncaballed). And our playerbase has shrunken to the point where the mud either needs to sacrifice some of its hardcore nature so that it appeals to more people, particularly modern gamers who can't handle a learning curve on a game or death actually meaning something (when's the last time you saw a hugely successful game that had a limited number of lives/continues?), or the mud will slowly die.

As much as I hate it, the game dying isn't the better option here.

If I remember correctly, there weren't too many people playing when I started. But Viri and Crypt weren't concerned about removing reasons people quit playing. They just kept adding reasons for people to play. People aren't staying because they've already done everything with the third pinn'd char. They have nothing to work for.

Where did all the players come from before? How much advertising did viri do? Answer those questions and you solve the problem.

(Successful game with limited lives: mario anything, zelda.)

[Mudder]

Viri didn't have to address the reasons people quit playing because it was a new MUD. People would come.

Now we are an old MUD. We have had many quality players leave. I agree Myrek, this system should NOT be needed. Yet the playerbase did it to themselves. This "full loot" mentality was killing the MUD. This is the response.

[myrek]

That isn't where the people came from. They came by word of mouth. They were brought here because the players thought this MUD was the best thing since sliced bread, it had nothing to do with it being new.

Fine. Forget about fair. Forget about rewarding hard work. Why not just let characters pick their cabal during character creation? That's pretty much the next step.

Keep giving benefits to those who have done nothing to earn them and FL might as well be candyland.

[Psycho Child]

First off, I am not a fan of the 2 tier system, I've made that clear from the outset. A long time ago, either Crypt or Viri (I forget which) said there would never be such thing as PK immunity in this game. Now it seems everyones got it. Nobles, Heralds, and now the blues. Half the people in my pk range it seems I can't attack. I must say its a disturbing trend.

However, I have seen a lot of new people in the game recently, and a fair number of them have been blues. Are more people good for the game? Hell yes. I love seeing some new faces around here. I think I've been quite considerate to them so far in showing them some ropes and where/how to gear up and rank up and whatnot. I havn't even killed one yet. See how hard I'm trying?

My main issues with the 2T system (as I have now dubbed it for berevity) I think have already been expounded upon for the most part.

1. Blues get to keep rares on death.

This I think is an issue the two sides will not agree on, and is the primary point of contention. Yes, the point is to make it so they don't have to spend so much time reequiping, but they could easily keep a set of nonrares on them in a backpack, (just not loosing your backpack/consumables saves you an enourmous ammount of time/gold as thats the first thing I take from a corpse) and then wear the nonrares when they die. So say for your average neutral warrior (warrior because they are heavily eq dependant and neutral because its easier to think of the equipment off the top of my head) would have in a backpack to wear on death:

Light: Golden Sun/Translucent Combat Lantern

Ring: Onyx/Opal *2

Neck: Rusted Medallion *2

Set of mithril/chasm dragon

Staff of Fangs

Cloak of Greed

Titanium Bracers

Thick Steel Faceplate

Fired Weapon & Ammo of Choice

Anyway, you get the point. Is he ready to jump right back into the PK game? Well, no. Is he survivable? Considering he has all his consumables still? And can't loose any of that? Hell yes. And you could probably put together a much better suit than that as well. I'm just sitting here at work tossing this together. You could kill a cabal guard with that, with no risk of loosing anything, other than your life. Pretty damn fair trade off I think. Compare how easy it will be for them to reequip and the fewer times they will die doing that I think blues will come out ahead on the life counter.

This also address another large issue people have, which is Blues comming right back and killing their killer. Well, if we allow the looting of all rares, then this becomes much less of an issue. If you choose to leave them their rares, (as I usually do unless I need them or they were a dick) then you assume the risk. If you take all the rares, then at least it will be an easier fight when they do come back. With classes such as Shaman, this is a larger problem, as my shaman (this was a year or more ago true) killed several people with nothing more than a clay shield and dented mace. But shamans are beasts. No perfect solution for this really, but allowing all rares to be looted would help mitigate the problem.

3. Thieves got stabbed in the back. And they never saw it coming.

Sorry thieves, yer screwed. I posted a thread about this earlier and I don't really have much more to add. No reason to even bother with attacking/bothering with a blue if you are a thief. Just pretend they arn't even in your pk range and hope they don't bother you. I already deleted my thief and probably won't ever play the class again.

TLDR:

I like that the 2T system is bringing people to the game, and bringing people back to the game. I do. I disagree with full looting/saccing everyone you kill on principal. I have probably full looted/sacced less than 20 (mayyybe 30) times the entire time I've played this game, which started back in beta. People change. The game changes. I accept this, and I'm not going to a different mud. Not yet. Like I said, it's a trend, and it's not one I like. The majority of players seem to think its neccessary, and the current administration agrees. While I'm not one of the people who made it neccessary, (I just came back after a long time away) I, like everyone, have to live with it. Unfortunatly I don't see the 2T system going away now that its here. I will say though, if we start implementing No-PK areas, I'm out. Thats where I draw the line.

[Aulian]

I dont know about you? But getting promotions in a cabal is tough as ****.

Theres heaps to work for. "This mine mine mine all mine I dont care if you havent got a clue its all mine" mentality is stupid and negative for the progress of the mud.

This new system hasnt even been given a chance, its just been shot down from the outset.

[Unknown Brother]

I like the new system. New players will get a chance to learn the layout and basic PK insted of jumping in headfirst getting themselves full looted, discuraged and quit playing.

[BigPapa]

I like the new system as well.

For those that are new, or have a lack of consistent playtime it is beneficial.

For that help, the limited number of rares are prohibitive to being ultra competitive in the PK arena, but with the good comes some bad.

[tassinvegeta]

That isn't where the people came from. They came by word of mouth. They were brought here because the players thought this MUD was the best thing since sliced bread, it had nothing to do with it being new.

Fine. Forget about fair. Forget about rewarding hard work. Why not just let characters pick their cabal during character creation? That's pretty much the next step.

You may be right about your first point. But with all the new updates that have been coming out can you honestly say there hasn't been any progress in it? Though we'd all probably would like to see faster changes could this be because the Imms fear making mistakes out of haste to a game we all love so much? I believe there has been much positive change while at the same time catering to a couple groups of other players at the other end of the spectrum. Yes I may agree on what brings certain players. I myself am finding it more and more difficult to find interest in some aspects of the game but I've been here for friggin years lol. No game is perfect. Though I can see why a huge chunk of players leave and I for one believe that more focus to our ideas and suggestions forum should be given more attention and taken more seriously much more quickly than it is now. How many times have we brought up powering up warrior lores? Zerks? Praetorian skills? Reworking monks, ninjas? Adding werewolves and a neutral qclass. Quick changes to these aspects would bring tons of new players back and out of the woodworks. As it did for i.e. ranger selectables and blademasters. If some of these things were changed/introduced I alone could use word of mouth to bring in a couple of new players just like that. Now imagine if each of you did the same thing and brought at least one player back with these shiny new changes. :eek:

Secondly you seem to continue to miss Malc's point about i.e. entrance into cabals. Additionally just because a char is moderate does not mean they are unable to work hard enough or are unworthy enough to get into a cabal let alone continue upon that path once they are within a cabal.

[Imoutgoodbye]

FL is not candy land.

Myrek, you know I've got a special place for you and Fem-Nec. You two are like the older brothers that beat up on me. You on the forums and, wow, I'm still in awe of Fem-Nec's undead thief to this day. It was some awesome RP, but hardass PK. Frustrating, but at the same time, Fem-Nec presented me with the shining moments that kept me here.

Now, not everyone has the testicular fortitude (or time, in a few rare cases) to be mowed down again and again and again. So, we give these people the "training wheels" you refer to. They get a "taste" of cabals, so it's still a treat. I'm sure the number of moderates inducted to a cabal will be limited. Except for Herald and they're not a cabal. They get to see Demons, Vampires, Undead, Illithid Psions, and Liches (anything else doesn't matter), but need to learn to be ruthless to attain them.

However, as was stated before things have changed, times have changed, and people have changed. I have few fond memories of my early days. Mostly silent PK and full loots. Full looting was the damn norm.

Now, I must get to my point. The TTPK system is here to stay. Much as I used to tell people who didn't like FL to the point they openly slandered/libeled(sp?), they can hit the door. So, you have come to a fork in the road.

My quesion: Which path are you going to take? Trust me, there's only two.

EDIT: The next person to sympathize by saying "Well, I kinda agree" or anything along those lines deserves to be slapped. Myrek deserves his fair share of respect, IMHO, but if I have to give one of you a spinal adjustment, I'll do it.