Iusedtobesomebody Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I love you too, Valek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest emp_newb Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I kinda agree with Iutbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrek Posted June 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 My quesion: Which path are you going to take? Trust me, there's only two. You are absolutely right, but it is a little incomplete. You say love it or leave it. I say FL left us. If the new player bail out stays in place as is, I am leaving. But I thought it would be wrong to not make an attempt to intelligently point out what was wrong and how to correctly fix it. And suppose this new system brings people in. Will they stay? Will they invest the time and effort that the people who are leaving would? I hope you see a return on your investment, but I don't see it happening. You are trying to cater to new players who barely ever do more than point and click. MUDs have always been less popular for that reason. Compile that with how guided characters are in the MMOs and you should begin to see why I think keepers are being pushed away in hopes of getting people that will never come. If you want to attract MMO players during this economic down turn, be like the MMOs. Add crafting classes or selectable crafting abilities. Add a trillion more quests. And hold weekly events. You will not win over those who cannot self-RP without it. We've always had those, and they always got tired of FL and left. I'm tired of talking about it. FL is being turned into a little hussy who gives all up on the first date. There's not going to be a reason for people to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 You say love it or leave it. I say FL left us. If the new player bail out stays in place as is, I am leaving. But I thought it would be wrong to not make an attempt to intelligently point out what was wrong and how to correctly fix it. FL's right here. I'm going to make it the same place it always was. It will be the same for me. Perception. Everyone else is right here waiting for you, too, Myrek. You'll always be welcome if you change your mind and you know it. Perception is the only way this conversation is headed. We want more players. New players. It's about us, it's about them. But there is no "I". We're a community. With that said, I have a family dinner to attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatic Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I am of the opinion most people will learn enough and get enough taste of pk as a moderate that once they feel they can survive, will most likely roll a ruthless so they don't look like a 'noob'. The being able to keep their consumables part is the greatest strength to this for new players, they no longer have to spend hours collecting a full bag of stuff and then get owned. Now they can stay 'combat-ready' all the time. The people who should be newer players who wouldn't stand a chance against the elite, anyways, and so what's the harm in giving them a few advantages to allow you elites a bit of a challenge again. There's no fun in two-rounding someone, (unless it's the first time it ever happened and was in response to a failed assassinate, at which point you show ALL of the people you know on aim, even the ones who don't play FL.) My glory moments of this game were on my watcher druid Growlik being taught to pk IG by Ghadryn(Aulian) The ogre warrior every warrior I roll is based off of but can't remember the name of(Warmongrels), Kronit(player unknown to me), and another druid who I can't think of the name, but his outlaw RP was awesome. Those days I probably got a total of 10 kills, and died many more, but seeing my improvement and the fact that I was getting better and better, to suddenly running people off and then learning to chase them. While I don't think I'll ever level a moderate char, I see no harm in it. If you just steamrolled someone, what makes you think they're going to turn around and come after you? Or is it the fact that you want to be able to full loot some noob who's been handed leftover shinies so you don't have to do any of the footwork yourself? I mean after playing with characters you can tell after your first pk encounter if they're a vet or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest emp_newb Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Am I reading properly that your leaving if this system stays in place Myrek? That seems a wee bit over the top. I am sorry but if implementing a system to help retain new players is causing you to leave, maybe you need to take up final fantasy. You remember being a newb, and getting frustrated. Basically it is 2009. The age of the massive graphical RPG for all our interests. For us to compete we HAVE to offer something to retain newbies. Honestly I have been completely full looted/sacced wearing half a suit of mithril when Iw as killed by someone my char had NEVER met. I do not care what anyone says if you are a newb, and spend 20-50 hours leveling and equipping, only to lose every piece for no reason other than your new, that is gonna cost us players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchaeius Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Myrek, even before this change, how many hours did you log into the game in the past six months? I ask this question because at times people who are not actually playing the game want to dictate the way the game is meant to be played. No offense is meant by this, as I would love to have you as a player - but at the risk of three, four, seven other players? Only to have you skip out whenever you feel like it? Surely you can understand. Give this thing a try. The system is not yet perfect, we are working out issues within it. Yet for the time being I think it is more or less a success. What made Forsaken Lands what it is was not multikilling. It was not full looting. It was roleplay with the danger of death around every corner. This is still maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrek Posted June 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Myrek' date=' even before this change, how many hours did you log into the game in the past six months? [/quote'] I was playing 15+/week up to February. Then my computer died. I could have been back sooner, but two moves (3 if you count me moving my fiancee's stuff) cut in to my time and led to large periods when I didn't have internet access. You are making a valid point, but I am assuming that you wouldn't hold too much of the above against me. What made Forsaken Lands what it is was not multikilling. It was not full looting. It was roleplay with the danger of death around every corner. This is still maintained. Other things that made FL great: fairness and rewards. Maybe I'm biased because I worked so hard to get cabaled and now it's practically given away with admission. Maybe it's that I'm insulted that you feel that I don't know when it is in my RP or not to attack a character again... so much that you code it so that I can't, even if my opponent can attack me. If you're going to gain more than you lose, do it. I don't think you will reap the rewards you are hoping for. Re: emp_newb Here is a list of things that I was looking for when I came to FL: ROM based not level based eq skill and level based training not limited PK (other than PK range) RP enforced 6 directions, not 10 (for some reason the NW's and SE's annoyed me) Cabals or clans quest classes/races not too small pets that can carry stuff not submit a letter to IMMs to get approval to PK a specific target (no ****, I've seen it) If I was coming to FL now, I would keep looking. I'm still here fighting for FL because I'm a part of it. One of the areas is mine. One of the cooler quest sets is mine. Every time a character does a warcry to their god, I smile because that was my (heavily scoffed at) idea. Etc etc. I've been playing here since '01. I don't want to leave. But things have changed a lot. Edit: Been looking for this since my original post: http://forum.theforsakenlands.org/showthread.php?t=15268. Six months ago people were screaming that people shouldn't keep their gear when they die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudder Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 It's funny. When any other player said half the things Myrek has we tell them to get the f**k out. Myrek included. Though I have never been a fan of that approach, I also don't want to cuddle him and tell him everything will be alright. Myrek you have come and gone repeatedly. We're never really sure exactly when you will return or when you'll leave. Though it always happens. I remember one time you quit because you had a Vampire and got killed a lot and decided that the game was too eq based. That you couldn't play it anymore because it wasn't like the glory days of 1.0 Yet here you are again. Even if you leave, you'll eventually come back. They always do. The analogy was not appropriate and offensive. Redmarkered. Warning given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cephirus Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Unfortunately, as you stated, the problem with new ideas changes is that the staff has to be choosy. They have to weight each idea based upon the feedback given, and game mechanics, keeping in mind what is best for the game/ playerbase. I do not envy the choices they are given some times. Yeah, they could go ahead and change warrior lores, monks, ninjas, all that, but it takes time. Time to test, time to balance, time to implement and further test. Patience is a wonderful virtue we all lack at times. So far, this year, I would say say, as with previous years, the game has continued to evolve. Has brought in more players from what I can see. These are all good things. Rejoice and enjoy them. Play the "F" out of the game and figure out every little nuance that could be adjusted to the 2T system, and post a constructive argument with examples, perhaps with logs, to back up your arguments. Nothing is perfect, sometimes you just have to settle for what is, and hope to make it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Edit: Been looking for this since my original post: http://forum.theforsakenlands.org/showthread.php?t=15268. Six months ago people were screaming that people shouldn't keep their gear when they die. That was in primarily in the context of tough, decked, skilled characters finally being pulled down, only to be able to preserve all of their rares and not lose a thing. It was not in the context of newer players or players who don't like PK being looted over and over again. Other things that made FL great: fairness and rewards. Maybe I'm biased because I worked so hard to get cabaled and now it's practically given away with admission. Maybe it's that I'm insulted that you feel that I don't know when it is in my RP or not to attack a character again... so much that you code it so that I can't' date=' even if my opponent can attack me.[/quote'] Greater rewards will go to ruthless, such as qraces, qclasses, higher cabal ranks, etc. You've repeatedly complained about 'opponents being able to attack you' when you aren't able to attack them, without noting the fact that those opponents are: A) Always under-equipped compared to you, Will always have fewer cabal powers available to them, C) Have just been killed (ie, lost 2 of their 10 or so rares), D) Are probably less skilled than you, and E) Lose their temporary PK protection the moment they attack you. If despite all of that, the fact that they, if they so desire, can enter the first command in battle against you is too much for you to handle... Here is a list of things that I was looking for when I came to FL: ROM based not level based eq skill and level based training not limited PK (other than PK range) RP enforced 6 directions, not 10 (for some reason the NW's and SE's annoyed me) Cabals or clans quest classes/races not too small pets that can carry stuff not submit a letter to IMMs to get approval to PK a specific target (no ****, I've seen it) All of this remains the case. PK is not limited; multikilling and full looting is, to a small subset of the population who simply isn't interested in PK as much, or who aren't as good in PK. If I was coming to FL now, I would keep looking. I'm still here fighting for FL because I'm a part of it. One of the areas is mine. One of the cooler quest sets is mine. Every time a character does a warcry to their god, I smile because that was my (heavily scoffed at) idea. Etc etc. I've been playing here since '01. I don't want to leave. But things have changed a lot. And if I, or many of the others, were just coming to FL now, without the Two Tiered System, I would keep looking. It takes years to be competitive in FL pk, because that's how long the MUD has been around, and how long most players have playing this game. Because of, to be absolutely honest, attitudes which have been very well demonstrated by this thread as well as a few other 'protest' threads, that means a few years of dealing with multikills and full-loots; of essentially spending long periods of time getting a few measly items, and losing them all to someone in full Winter/Desolation/Adeptus; of getting killed again while getting mithril; of being killed repeatedly despite being no real challenge to those who are multikilling them. When you started in '01, everyone was a newbie. Very few knew the game very well. Now everyone here is a vet, and to be absolutely honest, based on my best guesstimation based on your activity over the years, most of the players here have probably actually sunk more hours into this game than you have. Behavior which could be acceptable in the past to an extent no longer is; it was fine for vets to pick on newbies and less PK-focused players long ago, because there were a lot of newbies, and at least they had other newbies to fight. That no longer is the case...because most of the newbies got fed up and left. A MUD needs a critical playerbase mass of new players to sustain itself. FL is beneath that mass now, in large part because people with your style of play drove out people who didn't like PK as intense, as cut-throat, as all-or-nothing. This has led to a dangerously imbalanced playerbase demographic, where they are many veterans and few newbies; this type of demographic tends to be a self-perpetuating death spiral. The playerbase as an aggregate has proved to be incapable of acting in a way which would help nourish and build up a larger playerbase. It has multikilled and full-looted its way into a world where only those who can handle this sort of world would be willing to play the game. The newbies and the RP-focused or less PK-intense players have become a nearly extinct species which, if totally died out, will mean the death of this MUD. That is why there is now a code-based need to preserve them. You are one of the older and more respected players on the MUD, and we will be sad to see you go. That being said, if you feel that strongly against newer players and more RP-focused players receiving limited protection from PK-intensive characters with better equipment and more playing experience, then perhaps it is best that you leave, not just for your own enjoyment, but for the betterment of the MUD. A MUD with forty veterans and ten newbies is a dying MUD. A MUD with twenty veterans and thirty newbies is one which can survive. A MUD with ten veterans and forty newbies is even better. Newbies are, quite frankly, more important to the growth of a PK MUD than veterans, because newbies are the ones whom, PK-wise, other newbies have more fun interacting with. Newbies generate more newbies. Veterans, especially those who repeatedly kill and full loot newbies, do not; they do the opposite. To put in another way, 1 Gorath and 9 newbies can make for a healthy, self-sustaining, growing MUD; 9 Goraths and 1 newbie cannot. Malchaeius couched it in the terms of a trade off; three, five, seven for one Myrek. I will be even blunter; if FL can get even one or two newer players who stay in exchange for one Myrek, I will be overjoyed. There are now dozens of players of FL who currently have put at least as much time and hours into this game as you have; to use plain economic terms, you are a commodity which we have a surplus of, whereas the players we hope to (and need to) bring in and retain we have a deficit of. This coding is meant to rectify that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 A MUD with forty veterans and ten newbies is a dying MUD. A MUD with twenty veterans and thirty newbies is one which can survive. A MUD with ten veterans and forty newbies is even better. Newbies are, quite frankly, more important to the growth of a PK MUD than veterans, Oh, god...they're going to kill us and replace us with newbs! RUN!!! :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aulian Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Oh' date=' god...they're going to kill us and replace us with newbs! RUN!!! :eek:[/quote'] Dude... You're fine... You cant PK to save anything... Its the rest of us that should be worried... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrek Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 The tribe has spoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deptore Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Oh' date=' god...they're going to kill us and replace us with newbs! RUN!!! :eek:[/quote'] I feel like a 40 year old woman who's husband just left her for his new secretary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhokril Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Looks like I'm in luck. I was saying to myself as I left for the gym that I'd probably end up writing a page-long post in response to this thread, but Raargant saved me the trouble. Good post, Raar. The fact is, naysayers, we can make this into as much drama as you want, but I am very confident that in some time, maybe a couple weeks, maybe a couple months, maybe more, the people condemning their fun on this MUD to death will realize that the MUD is no less fun as a result of this change, that it didn't actually change that much, and that the sky has not fallen. Now let's all just cut through the tragic poetry and go RP with someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali_gmud Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I think this system has hardly changed much at all, it's more newbie friendly and all the big boys can still have their fun and battle it out. I don't think I'll ever make a moderate character, even I do Phsyco childs challenge and make a faerie thief warmaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 faerie thief warmaster. Not possible. I tried. Kicked out of Battle because Faerie's are naturally magical creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali_gmud Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Are you being totally cereal? that's bullocks man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jibber Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 You could always RP that you were switched into the faerie's body by a wicked witch, where you were once a respected Warlord of some distant realm. A stone giant, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatic Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Not possible. I tried. Kicked out of Battle because Faerie's are naturally magical creatures. Should've demanded a refund! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I like the new system. It almost does not affects me. While eradicating one of the biggest newbies fears. I only once was attacked another Player after i killed him, and it was only to take a single piece of eq. And since i prefer people to attack me, than for me to engage them as an agressor. This is even better for me. As hordes of newbies will rush into my magical chainsaw of mowing. There is only one thing i think can, and should be improved. The Looting opportunity. All players should have a timer to prevent them from full looting their own corpse. After all i killed him, i deserve my spoils. What i do not deserve is to be dirt kicked when about to land the killing blow to prevent me from looting him. Or finishing with a missed bash, and getting 3 rounds of lag, then looking at his corpse, choosing my piece and when i am typing "Get equipment" he rushes in and full loots it all. A simple 1 hour affect on the ghost will do. As even if i get dirt kicked i will have 30 seconds to look at the corpse and loot my item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deykari Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 LOL magical chainsaw of mowing, that is brilliant. Dey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 LOL magical chainsaw of mowing, that is brilliant. Dey Mya is brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhokril Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 There is only one thing i think can, and should be improved. The Looting opportunity. All players should have a timer to prevent them from full looting their own corpse. After all i killed him, i deserve my spoils. What i do not deserve is to be dirt kicked when about to land the killing blow to prevent me from looting him. Or finishing with a missed bash, and getting 3 rounds of lag, then looking at his corpse, choosing my piece and when i am typing "Get equipment" he rushes in and full loots it all. A simple 1 hour affect on the ghost will do. As even if i get dirt kicked i will have 30 seconds to look at the corpse and loot my item. This is no different from the way it was pre-change. There is one clarification in a related vein I'd like to make though. I've read a number of posts lately, from vets included, talking about how a character could reasonably predict that they would be brought back to life after seeing it happen to those around them. This is not legitimate roleplay. It is a consequence of an unavoidable OOC mechanic. It is one of those situations where we simply suspend disbelief on RP a bit in order not to ruin everyone's fun (by perm-killing their char). It is the same situation as how regular mobs, or Travens, or Kings return to no end even though we murder the hell out of them over and over. Nobody explains it as them coming back to life over and over, we just suspend our disbelief. To clarify: each and every time you come back to life should be just as amazing, jaw-dropping, and glorious as the first, nor do you think this is a "regular occurence" around you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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