Disarming - Unbalance.

[MadCowDisease]

the one thing that really irks me is when mya said weapons have become consumables that need to constantly be replaced.

DUH! they're equipment. equipment comes and equipment goes. if you get a piece of equipment, be it a weapon or armor, and expect to keep it for extended periods of time, you better be DAMN good at PKing or fleeing.

Also, only 2 classes can, both of which forsake a lot to accomplish. dragon against a caster isnt gonna work well unless they dont have their prots up or you have a short-lived chii bolt lvl 3 on hand. both of which fall under the category of preperation and therefor are nulled and void in discussions of overpowered abilities. the blm stance sacrifices all of the 2hand abilities that thrash mages in order to use.

and the weaknesses are exploitable on other classes too. monks that use dragon are extremely succeptable to trip. they also have lower-than-average hit/dam, as dragon gives no bonuses to either.

blademasters not only lose out on the offensive power of some of their skills, but also they have to take up a stance to do it, depriving them of far more useful stances, such as shadowdancer or doomsinger.

if anything, weapons need to become MORE exhaustable.

[L-A]

I think also that many of the norem weapons used to tend towards common or less offensive weapon eg battlemasters, vorpal and heron were all swords. Almost zero norem staff type weapon - some nodrop which were considered good. Same with whips - nodrop, not no rem. It gives a clear choice between being able to go all out offense at hte risk of disarm or having to give up some defensive power to go with norem. I only ever knew the vainglory to be nodrop never norem - again, GREAT weapon (one of my staples on any melee) but you can get left without it if you're not careful.

Very different than having dual master forgeman's hammers which are axes.

L-A

[Mudder]

To people who claim blademasters must forsake the use of 2h weapons in order to use ironarm..

That is not true. Blademasters have an amazingly useful skill commonly referrerd to as "doublesheath."

They can use ironarm, use doublesheath, set up a spellkiller, and return to dual wielding then immediately after a disarm type >draw, back to using a 2h weapon.

Though, agreed, against an invoker I would prefer doomsinger.

[Guest emp_newb]

iron arm is a dual wield stance. Let's say your wanting to use spellkiller to drop dispel out of the mix, your telling me you only want to spellkill it one time? Snakespeed is used more in themanner your describing, but if you want to use spellkiller EFFECTIVELY then you are gonna need to be wielding a two hander anytime a caster could cast. Which is gonna be more often than you can swap back and forth.

[MadCowDisease]

if im not mistaken you lose the benefits of the stance while not dual wielding. the reason it appears on your affects list should be that you are considered in a stance for the duration of the ability, whether or not you are making use of it. To prevent somebody from dropping a stance when it is convenient for them.

as to the method you are talking about- you still forsake the benefit of a much more useful stance. which is the balancing method. with the godly disarm comes the drawback of lower offensive and defensive power. the only time i would use ironarm is when i know im not gonna be in a fight until 2 tics before it ends. get in, use it, get the weapon out of their hands, get out, and put a MUCH better stance on.

[f0xx]

I don't know what is the problem Mya. They disarm you, you get your weapon back and wield it. They have 2 rounds of lag, you have only 1.

If you are talking about a certain WM abilty which allows BLMs and monks to "open" with disarm, then you don't even have a round of lag. All you have to do is get the weapon back and wield it. Voila, two rounds of lag for them and what they gain from it?

I understand that you wish your clerics to be an "unmovable object" when it comes to defence abilities, but that is just not possible due to balance issues. And it's not just that but you have the holy hands ability too! They disarm your weapon? FFS... you don't need one to fight them

[The Professor]

Invokers do not need no-disarm weapons.

I don't know about you...but if I only have one defense...I would surely like to use it.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I don't know about you...but if I only have one defense...I would surely like to use it.

Then stop mana charging maces.

[Mudder]

iron arm is a dual wield stance. Let's say your wanting to use spellkiller to drop dispel out of the mix' date=' your telling me you only want to spellkill it one time? Snakespeed is used more in themanner your describing, but if you want to use spellkiller EFFECTIVELY then you are gonna need to be wielding a two hander anytime a caster could cast. Which is gonna be more often than you can swap back and forth.[/quote']You misunderstood me. You would be using the 2h weapon the majority of the time, only switch back to dual wielding when you want to disarm then switch back.

It works very well. I preferred other tactics with my BLM, but this one is certainly decent.

[KRins]

I don't know...I'd rather be bladestorming, shadowdancing...heck I'd even Kairishi before I ironarmed against a caster... All three of those stances would result in drastically increased melee output compared to...the fairly beneficial in a proper situation tactics of ironarm. small lag curse disarm < semi-haste + faster onslaught, uber hit/dam from the modded strength. Even the turn my polearm into an axe to make it more offensive seems at least on par with ironarm. I mean...how often is a voke just shutting down your melee with one defense? The only really dominant use of ironarm I could think of...is maybe if you can somehow know the caster is spamming a high lag spell e.g ice storm/hellstream. You ironarm...lag them for a round of brutal defenseless melee...they ice storm, while ouchie...you should survive it (especially as we all know magic resist races are sick sick sick blms), two more rounds of dominant melee...the voke is either in pieces parts or damn near it. If my calculations are correct...you should be able to slip a crit strike into the mix the round after the ice storm but before its lag is over. Make that any of a number of strikes...voke in a world of trouble. As it's been said...just because your stance demands 2h/dualling doesn't mean you can't use doublesheath to tap into the skills from the other weapon set. I can specifically recall Tarim vs Gogrash. First...3 or 4 times....ABSOLUTE DEVASTATION. I mean...Gogrash literally had time to laugh at me then mal me into 2 legged anemic puppy mode. Finally I decide...screw this cat, lets see how bladestorm works. While I still lost in the end, drastically closer than it was the first several times simply by mixing up my stance and remembering that with a simple 'draw' snakespeed gives me a nice opening spellcounter. I guess technically a BLM is so diverse in tactics that more than 1 stance might work in a situation, especially against a repeat opponent who might expect stance Y and spellkill Z.

You know what ironarm is a sick c/c killer...situationally. I'll still take bladestorm/shadowdancer.

[Guest emp_newb]

Honestly after playing many invokers, wielding a weapon and removing it yourself BEFORE an ironarm disarm to prevent lag works FANTASTICALLY. I also find that vs certain cabal choices NOT wielding a weapon, albeit suicidal, is a very beneficial tactic.

[mya]

DUH! they're equipment. equipment comes and equipment goes. if you get a piece of equipment, be it a weapon or armor, and expect to keep it for extended periods of time, you better be DAMN good at PKing or fleeing.

Some of us are. Some people condie in 180h other lose a con point.

dragon against a caster isnt gonna work well unless they dont have their prots up or you have a short-lived chii bolt lvl 3 on hand

A Monk that faces a Caster without going for Chii bolt lvl 3 is very confident.

I have yet to be attacked by a monk on a C/C without getting Bolted.

monks that use dragon are extremely succeptable to trip. they also have lower-than-average hit/dam, as dragon gives no bonuses to either.

Monks can use Scrolls and Staves to make themselves fly.

They do not get Crane Hitdam, or Tiger DAmroll, but they lose none.

A monk with Beads, bless, frenzy and Hitroll gear will have a very high Hitroll.

Dragon gives some bonus, some are quite obvious, others are less.

A Monk that does not wishes to be defensive, can go dragon, fly and enlarge itself in order to become quite resistant to Lag attacks.

If you manage to get access to haste, then you can for example try Dragon+Fly+Enlarge+Haste on a non squid Necromancer.

Open with L3 bolt, dirt and go for the Disarm.

And a monk has some benefits in going Dragon against Giants Clerics/Healers/Shamans.

I don't know about you...but if I only have one defense...I would surely like to use it.

And you should, as even your lowest chance to parry of 1 in 4, represents 25% of your HP. A fraction to big to lose in a class that PK's in HP fuel.

[mya]

Honestly after playing many invokers' date=' wielding a weapon and removing it yourself BEFORE an ironarm disarm to prevent lag works FANTASTICALLY. I also find that vs certain cabal choices NOT wielding a weapon, albeit suicidal, is a very beneficial tactic.[/quote']

I do not know if you are aware, but if you try to disarm someone that is not wielding a weapon you will get a message saying you have no weapon and NO Lag.

I fail to see the point of your tactic.

[f0xx]

I fail to see the point of your tactic.

I fail to see the point of this whole thread too.

[Guest emp_newb]

I do not know if you are aware, but if you try to disarm someone that is not wielding a weapon you will get a message saying you have no weapon and NO Lag.

I fail to see the point of your tactic.

Here are my points:

#1 invokers rely on the heaviest (with a few exceptions) damage output of any class to get kills. I can confidently say invokers have the highest damage output.

#2 by using #1, and adjusting what gear you wear accordingly, you CAN trade hp with almost anything (save for horrendously decked, hasted melee chars, but those are rare)

#3 if an invoker is lagged they lose that output, and negate point #1. An ironarm blademaster disarms for one round. Which is 2 fireballs, an ice storm, a hellstream, 2 call lightnings, 2 dispels so on and so forth. Where as NOT wielding a weapon you will not incur that lag. There is also the issue of a certain cabal amplifying such things. Therefor making it possible to land those attacks without you doing anything. Where as without wielding a weapon you are allowing yourself those castings.

I wish I had a few of my pk logs vs Hlecla as you would see the differences.

[The Professor]

Then stop mana charging maces.

Good thing I don't...

Most times...I don't charge weapons at all...

[KRins]

Here are my points:

#1 invokers rely on the heaviest (with a few exceptions) damage output of any class to get kills. I can confidently say invokers have the highest damage output.

#2 by using #1, and adjusting what gear you wear accordingly, you CAN trade hp with almost anything (save for horrendously decked, hasted melee chars, but those are rare)

#3 if an invoker is lagged they lose that output, and negate point #1. An ironarm blademaster disarms for one round. Which is 2 fireballs, an ice storm, a hellstream, 2 call lightnings, 2 dispels so on and so forth. Where as NOT wielding a weapon you will not incur that lag. There is also the issue of a certain cabal amplifying such things. Therefor making it possible to land those attacks without you doing anything. Where as without wielding a weapon you are allowing yourself those castings.

I wish I had a few of my pk logs vs Hlecla as you would see the differences.

#1. Agreed.

#2. Agreed.

#3. Now you see why I'm more of an advocate of bladestorm/shadowdancer. If I see enemy blm ironarming...I'm either going to flee and remove the weapon or "let" him disarm, get my weapon...and rain down with everything I have. Obviously the first one is preferable. Honestly, Ironarm for a voke...there are ways around it for the voke to still be VERY dangerous. Monks in dragon are obviously more dangerous with bolt/air thrash.

[Guest emp_newb]

#1. Agreed.

#2. Agreed.

#3. Now you see why I'm more of an advocate of bladestorm/shadowdancer. If I see enemy blm ironarming...I'm either going to flee and remove the weapon or "let" him disarm, get my weapon...and rain down with everything I have. Obviously the first one is preferable. Honestly, Ironarm for a voke...there are ways around it for the voke to still be VERY dangerous. Monks in dragon are obviously more dangerous with bolt/air thrash.

Dragon is annoying, but can be dealt with. The thing that irks me is the massive lag certain monk/blm combos can deal that is the trouble. I would gladly eat 2-300 damage a round comfortably IF I could enter commands.

[f0xx]

Dragon is annoying' date=' but can be dealt with. The thing that irks me is the massive lag certain monk/blm combos can deal that is the trouble. I would gladly eat 2-300 damage a round comfortably IF I could enter commands.[/quote']

I am interested to see how any BLM combo can deal "massive" lag to an invoker, especially comparing it to the lag that a monk can do

[MadCowDisease]

Some of us are. Some people condie in 180h other lose a con point.

A Monk that faces a Caster without going for Chii bolt lvl 3 is very confident.

I have yet to be attacked by a monk on a C/C without getting Bolted.

Monks can use Scrolls and Staves to make themselves fly.

They do not get Crane Hitdam, or Tiger DAmroll, but they lose none.

A monk with Beads, bless, frenzy and Hitroll gear will have a very high Hitroll.

Dragon gives some bonus, some are quite obvious, others are less.

A Monk that does not wishes to be defensive, can go dragon, fly and enlarge itself in order to become quite resistant to Lag attacks.

If you manage to get access to haste, then you can for example try Dragon+Fly+Enlarge+Haste on a non squid Necromancer.

Open with L3 bolt, dirt and go for the Disarm.

And a monk has some benefits in going Dragon against Giants Clerics/Healers/Shamans.

And you should, as even your lowest chance to parry of 1 in 4, represents 25% of your HP. A fraction to big to lose in a class that PK's in HP fuel.

all of which falls under something you are too ingrained in your argument to take in: Monks and Blademasters are classes that RELY on preperation. if you prepare wrong, you die. they devote what, 26 ticks to ironarm? that is 26 ticks without offensive or defensive stance bonuses.

Dragon? its wonderful. situationally. As other monk players beat into my head, there are far better stances, such as buddha, for fighting c/c. yes you are going to be charging a chii bolt 3. but if the monk is prepared enough and can pinpoint you enough to where he/she knows he can reach you in to less than 10 tick duration for chii bolts, you probably didnt stand a chance anyway.

earlier you said something to f0xx about picking it up working 9/10 of the time.

9/10 is a helluva lot. also, disarming lags you longer than them, so its only useful if you notice they are stacking commands. anyway. if you can depend on something 9 times outta 10, its not broken. you cant ignore the 9 times it works and focus only on the 10th and say its not balanced.

and btw, if you're going against a flying, enlarged, hasting monk in dragon stance, i doubt they are gonna stop to disarm you. you're pretty much done.

[MadCowDisease]

I do not know if you are aware, but if you try to disarm someone that is not wielding a weapon you will get a message saying you have no weapon and NO Lag.

I fail to see the point of your tactic.

i fail to see how this has any bearing on YOU avoiding the lag, which is what emp was saying. remove it before the disarm so that you are not lagged.

[Nekky]

Buddha stance is good for fighting a caster/communer if you are happy to survive, but have no chance of killing them. In buddha stance you have no lag skills, you can't charge chii bolts, and chakeras are far weaker (if they even exist).

So if you're keen to play to a draw, buddha is ok. If you really want to get out there and shake them up, you should go offensive even if it means you have more of a risk of death.

[mya]

#3 if an invoker is lagged they lose that output, and negate point #1. An ironarm blademaster disarms for one round. Which is 2 fireballs, an ice storm, a hellstream, 2 call lightnings, 2 dispels so on and so forth. Where as NOT wielding a weapon you will not incur that lag. There is also the issue of a certain cabal amplifying such things. Therefor making it possible to land those attacks without you doing anything. Where as without wielding a weapon you are allowing yourself those castings.

Are you telling me that your Mage gets lagged from being disarmed by a Blademaster ?

MCD 9 out of 10, means that you will eventually get your weapon sacrificed and will have to get a new one. If you are not paying attention or he is really planing for it, you can get no chance to pick it up.

I don't know about you but for me, losing a rare weapon with a heart means some down time related to the availability of the said weapon and socket, which can be as little as 1 hour or up to 1 week.

[MadCowDisease]

MCD 9 out of 10, means that you will eventually get your weapon sacrificed and will have to get a new one. If you are not paying attention or he is really planing for it, you can get no chance to pick it up.

I don't know about you but for me, losing a rare weapon with a heart means some down time related to the availability of the said weapon and socket, which can be as little as 1 hour or up to 1 week.

such are the woes of regearing. its been happening for a while now.

9 times out of ten you wont. the chance that you will is obscure. thus making it little more than an annoyance. Again, you dont balance things based on the miniscule chances.

Equipment will be cycled. That is supposed to happen. You have to work to keep it. Pitching a fit because you have to find a new sword because you either were not paying attention or one of the 2 classes in the entire game able to disarm that weapon actually devoted 13 minutes of their lives (the duration of the stance) to making sure that they can. Not to mention that those said classes are classes in which preperation is a focal point.

No offense, but the game does not need reworking so that you can be lazy.

[MadCowDisease]

Buddha stance is good for fighting a caster/communer if you are happy to survive, but have no chance of killing them. In buddha stance you have no lag skills, you can't charge chii bolts, and chakeras are far weaker (if they even exist).

So if you're keen to play to a draw, buddha is ok. If you really want to get out there and shake them up, you should go offensive even if it means you have more of a risk of death.

This is true. but my point was that while dragon is incredibly useful, it is still just as situational as every other stance.