Cabal promotion

[Neewie]

Hello.

Ive got a question, and please dont take it the wrong way, its not meant to insult.

So I got into a cabal. I did not pick the most easiest race/class + align. But anyway Im in this cabal and now really hoping for a promotion at some point. Now my main problem is that one of the spots who was promoted is the same class as myself, but with neutral align, and a race much better suited for it, seems to me a little bit more like a 'pick' (like neutral syndicate ogre warriors instead of evil human warriors in syndicate). My question is if I am meassured for promotion on the same terms as my competitor even though I have little chance of being as strong due to race and align differences?

If not, should it be?

Please not this is not directed at any player, people are allowed to pick what they want to play, I just want to know if I am still able to 'get' somewhere with a little weird character composition.

[-Totenkopf-]

Of course you can get somewhere. You path your own path. Not everyone that gets promoted is a PK powerhouse.

[Lytholm]

PK prowess is but a small part of cabal promotions. Yes, it does help but if you are in a cabal, do the right thing and keep with it you'll find promotions follow naturally.

So to answer your question - yes, its very possible you'll get somewhere if you put the effort in.

Lytholm.

[Neewie]

Excellent.

[Celerity]

But, like you fear, RP success is seemingly related to PK success. Nearly all elders and leaders of cabals are there mostly for their PK prowess (no offense to any imms or any elders/leaders in particular--including many of my own elders/leaders). Of course there are exceptions, but if you follow the overwhelming trend, you'll notice that if your PK falls flat, people tend to ignore most of your RP---especially other players.

RP has been been improving greatly (as to compared, say, two years+ ago), so I hope this trend continues into the promotion scheme.

For a key example, I'd like to point out Masokant. A very strong PK character, who even the cabal im(p?) and the player themselves has stated, wasn't exactly much into RP. Yet, because of the PK skill, the player managed to get a qrace, get to Elder in one cabal, go nearly 100% inactive for a year?, cabal hop (with a qrace nonetheless!), get a conquest, and get the L spot in the new cabal. All of this was done without the player taking a proactive RP stance in developing their character or these events as they occured. The player showed a lot of OOC dedication to the character, but I think mostly to developing the PK, not the RP. I'd daresay that any notable RP (ex. conquest) was probably Imm-initiated and led (and anyone can react when a they an IMM is leading you and you'll get a big prize at the end)

Sure, Masokant is an extreme example, but the point remains, that the ogre neutral in Syndi probably WILL have an easier time getting promoted than the evil human warrior (especially since people will coup a non-power combo very quickly). Lytholm said that PK is small, but I daresay that PK is much more important and that a well-developed, active RP is great!!!, but optional. As long as you meet some minimum basic non-OOC standards, or show some exceptional RP, your PK will be the first and clearest measure of your success. Again, I say this with the disclaimer that this has been improving in the last couple of years, but we have a long way to go yet.

[Aulian]

But, like you fear, RP success is seemingly related to PK success. Nearly all elders and leaders of cabals are there mostly for their PK prowess (no offense to any imms or any elders/leaders in particular--including many of my own elders/leaders). Of course there are exceptions, but if you follow the overwhelming trend, you'll notice that if your PK falls flat, people tend to ignore most of your RP---especially other players.

RP has been been improving greatly (as to compared, say, two years+ ago), so I hope this trend continues into the promotion scheme.

For a key example, I'd like to point out Masokant. A very strong PK character, who even the cabal im(p?) and the player themselves has stated, wasn't exactly much into RP. Yet, because of the PK skill, the player managed to get a qrace, get to Elder in one cabal, go nearly 100% inactive for a year?, cabal hop (with a qrace nonetheless!), get a conquest, and get the L spot in the new cabal. All of this was done without the player taking a proactive RP stance in developing their character or these events as they occured. The player showed a lot of OOC dedication to the character, but I think mostly to developing the PK, not the RP. I'd daresay that any notable RP (ex. conquest) was probably Imm-initiated and led (and anyone can react when a they an IMM is leading you and you'll get a big prize at the end)

Sure, Masokant is an extreme example, but the point remains, that the ogre neutral in Syndi probably WILL have an easier time getting promoted than the evil human warrior (especially since people will coup a non-power combo very quickly). Lytholm said that PK is small, but I daresay that PK is much more important and that a well-developed, active RP is great!!!, but optional. As long as you meet some minimum basic non-OOC standards, or show some exceptional RP, your PK will be the first and clearest measure of your success. Again, I say this with the disclaimer that this has been improving in the last couple of years, but we have a long way to go yet.

I agree 100%.

There really is no point denying it, PK is much more rewarded then RP. Even when I think of the early days of my playing; there didn't exist the idea of putting effort into becoming a better RP'er because the time was MUCH better spent learning the PK side as the reflective rewards were far better for good PK then good RP.

I have tried to put some RP into all the characters I've played, but there's still a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that tells me that if I didn't have a positive PK record, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I did. I even received some measure of OOC and IC abuse for 'wasting' a vampire by sticking it into Herald.

Actually some recent cabal promotions - completely unrelated to what Im playing I might add - have left me scratching my head somewhat.

Then again I am merely a puny mortal for a reason *shrug*.

Interesting topic however.

[Anume]

Re Celerity/ Aulian: In case of Masokant you are 100 % wrong He'd never have gone over T had he not tried very hard to improve his rp, which I told him outright. And Imm initiated rp doesn't really count here. I expect both good pk AND rp from anyone > T. That does not necessarily mean they have to rp with anyone / your character though. If a char is very strong in one he has at least to try in the other.

I've also eldered Dey in the old days when he couldn't pk for .... Didn't even condy as fast as I would have thought.

[Aulian]

Lol I might take this time to clarify...

Maso had to do what he did to get what he did... I was agreeing with the rest of the post rather then the maso example.

EDIT: Is Esh drunk? I think that is the first time I have EVER seen a spelling mistake from her ever

[f0xx]

I've noticed that as long as you show dedication, no matter of your class/race/cabal combo, promotions will come. Yes, sometimes they will come quite slow, especially if you are not playing a power combo and are in certain cabals which are well known for slow promotions, but they will come.

Also another thing, I've noticed a few players in certain cabals which are obviously a bit new/less experienced. My suggestion to them is to ask ask and ask and DO NOT act arrogant. Arrogance will get you nowhere and even the opposite, will make you a lot of enemies especially if you are less experienced and have problems with PK.

[Aulian]

Re Celerity/ Aulian: In case of Masokant you are 100 % wrong He'd never have gone over T had he not tried very hard to improve his rp' date=' which I told him outright. And Imm initiated rp doesn't really count here. I expect both good pk AND rp from anyone > T.[i'] That does not necessarily mean they have to rp with anyone / your character though. If a char is very strong in one he has at least to try in the other.

I've also eldered Dey in the old days when he couldn't pk for .... Didn't even condy as fast as I would have thought.

So its RP enforced as long as we don't have to do it?

Try? Yes if they are trying I can see over T promotions. For L? I would expect someone to have the full package... Or at least put considerable effort into both.

[Celerity]

Again, the Masokant example was a bit extreme, but the point is still firmly there.

You should have an exceptional reason to even cabal hop, much less to succeed in it. Again, I know that Masokant was an exceptional character and I'm not trying to attack him, but I'm saying that his RP wasn't nearly developed, active, and long-term enough to justify all the things that he got. Then again, like you said, I couldn't watch him (some of the time ). I may very well be completely wrong. However, this is an interactive RP game. If most of the other players don't know about the RP, it falls under passive (or raar's counterstrike RP), and isn't effectively there. Other players SHOULD be involved in a great deal of the RP, because basically that is what an interactive RP-enforced MUD is all about. (edit: ESPECIALLY in a leadership position--the RP should be global scale)

Again, the player initiative is a key factor for me. Anyone can RP for a qrace/promotion/specific quest/when they know an IMM is snooping. It is the other 99% of the time that is important to the rest of the playerbase.

But my focus isn't so much on Masokant as the trend. He was just an example.

[Anume]

Celerity, few people are perfect in both. If they are damn good in one and and try very hard in the other, that is fine with me. Goes in both directions. Dey's ninja sucked at pk (sorry Dey ) but kept trying. He had excellent rp. Masokant excelled at pk and cabal devotion. He tried very hard to improve on his rp. He got T by coup. He got Elder through devotion (I think about half of his lives through the con quest he lost to Kurvikhel before the necro changes when others simply logged off). He got L as a goodbye treat with 2 lives left Plus I think he earned it. Others have gotten L for a lot less effort, so stop bashing poor Maso

I agree with you that cabal hopping should be rare and we try to keep it that way. Things are much harder usually if you've been in another cabal before (clan less so). Remember Azantar? He was in Syndi before he went Nexus too. Those examples are rare, as much more effort will be necessary to get there, but they can happen. Masokant did not need his conquest for no reason

As to qrace applicants, I very often watch them without them ever knowing. If I am visible, chances are high I am not watching them atm.

As a sum up, BOTH pk and rp are wanted / necessary / enforced here. If you are good in both, you will go up in your cabal fast. If you are excellent in one and try very hard in the other, you will go up too in most cases. Because that is how you learn to get excellent in both, by being given the chance and some positive feedback for trying.

[Celerity]

I think we -almost- agree with each other here but are focusing on different points. I definitely agree with the last sentence you made, that is very important. I also agree that devotion + a positive attitude > rp/pk prowess (aka the Deykari factor).

I wasn't trying to get you to tell me WHY masokant was promoted (in retrospect, probably it wasn't a good precedent to set to have told me), but I really wanted to emphasize that RP needs to be open and seen by the playerbase to be effective. PK by nature is seen and heard about by all, which makes it easy to measure, which makes it easy to reward. Therefore, I really think it is up to the immstaff to really put RP ahead of PK and go out of their way to strongly promote/reward it. This goes way beyond cabal promotions, but that is a good measure of it.

PK has its own rewards IG (in terms of the success of the character), but RP really doesn't. RP really needs the IMM support. RP plots quickly lose motivation/fun without active support by the staff (something I am very guilty of). On the contrary, even minor RP becomes meaningful when rewarded/recognized.

Again, again, again, I'm not saying that you guys DON'T do it. I know you especially watch carefully. I wasn't trying to imply that you don't at all. The original post was aimed at showing the true importance of PK, which was being downplayed in the posts above it.

[Anume]

One of the recent changes focuses exactly on rewarding rp: the possibility for the Staff to hand out exp bonuses for good rp we see. Other things like restrings and special items also are more often given out for rp than pk reasons.

As to the open rp, best way is to lead by example. We sure would be happy if more players went out of their way to include more people, not by forcing their rp on them, but by actually interacting and developing rp depending on responses from others. We are always very happy if we notices someone doing just that. Good example here would be Pali's paladin with the Guard of Elven City restring, think his name was Ilendriel. Now that was some rp effort. Still sad the char was not played longer.

[KRins]

If you don't swing a considerably big stick...frequently your RP falls on deaf ears and blind eyes. Even I've been guilty of it. Eh, that guy just died to a plasm beast...who cares what he has to say? I mean, the only time I know my RP is really catchy is when someone else "assimilates" it. Nothing like sending out a scroll about your RP, then hearing some other guy was chatting up the "higher up" chars practically verbatem from your note. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery or something like that right?

[Guest emp_newb]

I share similar sentiment. Not to say that RP is not rewarded, but cabal promos tend to go to people who are doing alot of PK. I will not bring up any examples of specific characters to prevent a flame war.

Again though RP IS rewarded, just not as often. Hell Pildo is tattooed, and I know am only average with pk and him (**** you scholin you can cenobite my ***) Just seems, to me anyway, that the more tangible results go to PK beasts, instead of RP heavy players. Barring herald when is the last time you saw someone get Elder on the basis of RP, and compare that to the number of people who got E based on pk.

[spiegel06]

2 Neewie: Keep working at it, as long as you show dedication, decent Rper and try to pk then the Imms will reward you for it. Llike for my watcher thief, I did terrible with him (in regards to PK) only got 1 kill I believe and that was to a fellow clansmen.... but my Rp was decent and kept trying to kill my enemies, didnt give up, and I got up to Elder in Watcher for my dedication.

What you put into it is pretty much what you get out. But for certain cabals I would imagine that you would need a better Pk prowess like Syndicate, Tribunal maybe but it is up to each Imm for their own reasons. Just stick with it and dedicate.

[Twinblades713]

Just stick with it and dedicate.

Right here. Can't fail. If you suck at one or the other, you'll get better, you'll be pushed to improve and you will be helped to improve. Most of all, if you're dedicated, it's not a chore. If it's fun you'll get what you're looking for.

[MadCowDisease]

RP is actually awarded pretty well. Imms give restrings for ideas. ive had 2 restrings myself. but I find that where you are truly rewarded for RP is from other players. RP has probably saved all of us from a few more PKs than we'd like to remember.

As to the specific case of Masokant, I really do not see the issue with his RP. His PK -was- ALOT of his RP. But that is natural. You have a Chaos Demon running around slaughtering people, and you get scared. Does your character really care about his motives? If you're good aligned, then typically no, you don't. his motives are just another reason to despise him. He's a f***in demon. the more "sneaky" goods could use the fear invoked by a demon to wait in the shadows for opportunity.

if you're evil: have a plot? Stand back and let him absorb the spotlight of all those pesky lightwalkers. why jeopardize your own plans by peeking your nose too far into his? idolize him? do i even need to explain this one? follow him around. learn from him. join him in wreaking havoc. envious of him? want to take his place? feel like he's overshadowing you? eliminate him from existence. would be quite a boost in renown.

nuetral? warmaster: think of the glory you'd get besting him in combat. do gladiators or barbarians really care about his childhood, his aspirations or his family? CN: who cares? so long as he leaves you alone, let him do whatever.

NN? in watcher? he's a demon, and thus a sworn enemy. again, do you care what his motives are? syndacite? again, let the zealous worry about him. makes your job easier. LN? tribunal? He's breaking the law. Do you care why or do you want to bring him to justice?

Good RP does not have to be captivating in of itself. I see Masokant as an RP that helped define and draw out the RP of every other player in his time. How many people can honestly say that? To look at RP from only the standpoint in that everyone must have a story is bland. He got demon, did he not? He surely has an rp. just because he doesnt share his past with every jimbob-warrior or suzy-voker doe not constitute a claim that his rp was not deserving of any thing, including L. In fact, who else can you think of for the leader spot for nexus?

again, i see no grounds whatsoever to make masokant an example of PK-heavy promotion.

[Guest emp_newb]

I disagree with the PK as RP. Pk does not have to be your RP ever. I will use my interactions with Deykari as an example.

Garint and his berserker where both after undead, both on massive pk sprees. Dey and I had alot of respect for each others RP, so our fight was not about an I will kill you, it was about testing ourselves to see who was worthy oif undead. Even after the fight we both had more respect for each other. My reasoning was solely based on the fact that Dey had/has great rp, and is awesome to interact with.

Pamiyn and Krondrin. Ruthless night elf pally avatar vs hateful drider reaver voker. We hated each otehr, to a T. Yet our RP is what drove the fights, his elitist rp, my hate the world because I am a freak in it now RP. We hated each other, but the RP bled heavily into our pk.

Gogrash and Enellelisell. Sickly faerie vs Friendly duergar. Sure he was a goodie, and I was an evil bounty hunter, sure we had to fight. He prolly hated the fact I was rping a friendly bounty hunter, but his gasping,. wheezing, and constant out of breath tells made the pks worth remembering

Scholin and Pildo. Scholin and Pildo are total opposites. Hatye each others core beliefs, but we, I believe, have a mutual respect because of the applied RP we both have. I am a reluctant semi-pacifist, and he is an indifferent war-lady. I cannot tell you how many times I have wanted to sink britain because of the PKs. But the RP I get out of Scholin is why I still log in to fight him

your pk should never be your RP. Your RP should always grant you reasons to pk for sure. But your pk should never be the reason you RP.

Also on a side note, I do not spout my life story off to anyone who is near me. But ask anyone who took the time to ask any of my chars about why they are here, I can confidently say they enjoyed it.

Krondrin-outcast male drow turned drider by lloth for his disrespect

Vasraema-female fanatic follower of lloth, cut of her hands as a show of respect

Phaige-Masochistic insane lover of peace, the only way to have peace is to kill everyone

Maerothir-weaponsmith turned pally turned sader who wanted to give the world a chance at real peace (nothing like phaige) but knew war must be ended first.

Pildo- Fat, mildly neurotic inventor with a hate of the name gnome. it is Guhnome people.

Gogrash- Duergar shammy turned female gnome due to some RP with an immortal. That was an interesting time.

Not trying to toot my own horn, but all of those chars had alot of pking that they had to do/did, yet their main focus was bringing good, enjoyable rp to the table. I know there are many other players who share my sentiment.

[Twinblades713]

I really like those examples.

[Zhokril]

I don't think that RP is less rewarded, but I do concede that it is harder to be rewarded for good RP. Why? Because "good" RP is not necessarily tangible. Some people might enjoy one style of RP that another person might find flat out boring.

On the other side of the coin, PK has very tangible qualities that make you either good, bad, or somewhere in between at it, to put things bluntly.

It is not that RP is not valued as much as PK, its just that its harder to quantify what good RP is, especially when it won't always be seen every time. If you kill that strong E/L, word will get around and the IMMs will pretty much always hear about it. If you have an awesomely great RP session, its possible that it might be missed if there is no log submitted.

For those of you asking about promotions, I'll tell you flat out that I (personally) won't leader any character that is not good at both RP and PK. That isn't to be a hardass, its just what I think a leader should be - the best of the best. For me, being good at one and trying hard at the other is enough to get eldership, but that isn't what I see a leader to be. There is very little distinction between E/L responsibilities in a cabal, they are pretty much the same. I see leader akin to the position of a five-star general; even though it carries more authority during wartime, it is mainly a ceremonial rank given to show respect/honor/that they are the best of the best.

My view of the things basically falls in this sytem:

Good at PK, doesn't try at RP: <= Trusted

Good at RP, runs from/trashy in PK: <= Trusted

Good at PK, isn't so great but tries at RP: <= Elder

Good at RP, isn't so great but tries at PK: <= Elder

Good at PK, Good at RP: <= Elder (gets promoted faster)

Very good at PK, Very good at RP: <= Leader

Obviously these 'rules' aren't hard-and-fast, and I use my discretion in cases where I think people simply deserve it. However, that is what I use as my general guideline.

[Anume]

A L should also have a really deep influence on the rest of the cabal AND the clan. If you're not really interested in anything but yourself, you shouldn't be in a leader spot in my opinion.

[MadCowDisease]

emp, im not saying that PK should be excusable as RP. but i am saying that a large part of RP can be PK. again, the lack of transparence in RP is not grounds for launching an argument that a position was not earned. i know i've done it a lot, gotten pissed at silent PKs. i know its hard not to assume that there is no PK to a person's killing. however, while i may not see it, it can still be there. but thats just my 2 cents, and i have no real reason to keep arguing it, especially after he condeathed already

[Guest emp_newb]

I have no trouble with people who are not rping publicly going to trusted and things. It is just in my opinion, and please keep in mind this is NOT a knock on ANYONE in game right now, or any imms, anyone who gets elder/leader should be the personification of what this cabal is. They should not have "hidden" rp. Their RP should be evident from interacting. Someone who I can bring up who I felt personified this 100% beyond a doubt was Morchial. That man was a scary persona in game. Contrary to alot of opinion it was his gameplay that amazed me, he personified 100% what I think of when I think pandemonium, it was just a pleasure to interact with that character. Pk or Rp.