Thief & Backstab

As it is, thieves have four weapons: Mace, Dagger, Sword, Spear

However, most thieves are pretty dependent on backstab, which means most thieves can only use: Spear, Dagger.

Spears come in three categories in FL: Two handed, Impossible to pk with, Impossible to get.

There are only a very FEW(which implies three and makes me rethink) good one handed spears that can be attained without massive amounts of effort. The best ones are in gear/winter/other hard places.

Daggers there are alot of, but daggers aren't that great of weapons for a melee fight.

I would like to propose that thieves become able to backstab with swords.

Exotics...

Aka pieces of crap?

There are so few decent rares and they are so ofensive any thief who tries to use them against a melee is going to more than likely get his *** handed to him pretty fast.

shrug

It just seems thieves are too dependent on daggers.

Oh, and poison is overpowered and cheap.

Exotics are pretty lame, I was just reminding you thieves have five weapons. Numerous exotics and even some swords (I think), can backstab. Thieves do not have a single good defensive weapon. Why would they? You run into a highwaymen in the country side, he is trying to rob and kill you not protect himself. He is on the offensive.

But in melee, they are still less offensive than other melees like warrior, berserker, ranger(less so) or blademaster.

Hmm... You got me there. I wasn't really thinking about it in a comparison context. When compared to a warrior, everything is both less offensive and defensive. Kinda the same thing for zerks. BLMs can be nastily hard to hit sometimes, especially with proper stance/prediction/preparation. Rangers, we Rangers are a subject I won't get into because in my mind they are/are darn close to the nastiest boys on the block.

I would agree that a thief will find it very tricky to fight even a sub-standard equipped warrior with poison who knows what they're doing even a little bit. However, patience will bag you that opportunity to bag them, at times. Thieves aren't warriors, and they certaintly wouldn't be expected to fight toe-to-toe with them. However, where I agree, is that it can be tremendously tricky to fight them in a hit-and-run style also, because a staffing warrior can win a fight by using bash alone against a thief, especially if they're enlarged.

I have a couple of ideas. I'm not saying thieves need changing at all, because with patience and preparation they can take down a warrior providing they aren't decked. Which as a thief, you'd be working on making them not decked anyway.

First idea: A defense, similar to dodge, perhaps acrobatics or something, that grants a small chance of evading bash/bodyslam. It would have to be quite a small chance of evading, so that it's not impossible to laglock a thief, but then the problem there, is "is it actually worth it"? It usually doesn't take more than a few bashes, especially enlarged, to have a thief dead unless the thief is decked and the warrior is equipped to poor standards.

Second idea: Same acrobatics style skill, except this one isn't passive. Basically, in combat, you utilize the skill and then for one/two ticks, you have the acrobatics effect. Which basically gives a very good chance of dodging ONE bash/bodyslam, before it must be used again. The skill has a one-round lag effect when used so that if used, he has enough time to run/do something then run if the bash/bodyslam fails, with it's three rounds of lag. The effect will be removed if either the thief or their opponent flees from combat, and there would also be some form of timer before the thief can use the skill again.

Again, just a couple of ideas (with flaws) to bring up, not saying thieves need anything or not.

As for weaponry, I think being able to backstab would help, as swords are more defensive then daggers/spears, but there are some pretty unwieldy swords out there that IMO you wouldn't even dream of stabbing with.

Dey

Right. Cuz Azantar SUCKED. His backstabs did grazes at most. Pfft. No WAY. Thieves are strong enough as it is. Either you're not doing it right or you got bad luck.

Are we seriously suggesting a thief power-up?

I was seriously stating that thieves can backstab with certain swords and exotics...and that I have no understand of the pasteurization process.

I actually still don't understand why theives get mace anyway.

I would like to propose that thieves become able to backstab with swords.

There's no reason why you can't switch to a sword after your backstab, like pallies might switch from a polearm after a mounted charge.

You'll only get one chance at a backstab during pk, then your weapon selections have opened right up.. unless of course you're one of those thieves that intend to throw in a circle or two

Oh, and poison is overpowered and cheap.

The same might be said about the trap that negates this.

And other stuff.

I'm currently playing my first thief ever, and my record at PK isn't too terrible. I've found a lot more success if I get myself into the mindset of not "actively" hunting my opponent. It's much easier if you just hang around Rheydin and wait til the chump comes waltzing through. And I've been using exotics thus far against classes who have spear and dagger and spears/daggers against classes that don't, and I've been having no problem out meleeing fools. Of course, those talismans on their necks don't help them out too much.

And you do fine there are many advantages of using exotics over daggers in PK.

That is when they know about daggers.

The same might be said about the trap that negates this.

Exactly what I mean about how thieves can get the drop. Detect magic helps a treat too.

Dey

In PK, there are advantages and disadvantages to using exotics. I use exotics when I'm fighting a class that has spear/dagger because I assume that they will be equally skilled with those weapons, just as they would be with exotics. The reason exotics is a good choice is because there is a large selection of magical damage exotics, which which you can backstab, that are all close at hand (marm orb, planar blade, etc). Moderated

And I realize that this probably gives away who my characters is, but I could care less. Back in the D, there were no anonymous posts. Everyone knew who everyone played, and there was not a huge problem with OOC vendettas carrying over. Whether or not that is the case today, I have no clue.

Its okay, I am 99% sure I already knew who you played.

I still say Thieves get a Path option at 30 as per my suggesstion on another thread.

...but that is most likely just me..

It did tend to make things more melee-based for Bandits and more stealth-based for Rogues.

thieves get maces so maces don't kill them...back in the day when communers used a mace or two sometimes.