defenses

Perhaps make defenses toggled like autosac. It would make training the later to activate defenses much easier.

Wow. That's a really good idea. People should able to decide which defenses to use, and it'd make training a warrior much easier than it is now.

One of the skills of playing a class is knowing how to master its skill/spells.

Those are also a balancing factor.

Just think of Disarm and Shield Disarm. How you can train one alone and the other you just age away.

Virigoth already made a change that alowed the defences to enter in a random order. Before that it was a step by step fail check.

Parry. ( Yes -> end, No -> go to next defence)

Dual parry. ( Yes -> end, No -> go to next defence)

Dodge. ( Yes -> end, No -> go to next defence)

Riposte. ( Yes -> end, No -> get hit)

This ended with people who had practiced all weapons and parry/dual P having a hard time mastering dodge / riposte.

Mastering defences is the easyest thing to do. You just need to follow the warrior essay.

Dont practice whips, neither dodge. Master riposte then dodge.

Or do the hard way, dont practice defences untill riposte and wield a staff.

Also mastering hand to hand helps you master your defences.

there are certain skills that won't activate unless you already have a skill before it (eg. first and second parry). Think about it like this. If I tried to punch you, you could consciously decide not to try and block my punch and just jump out of the way. Or you could try and block it and not worry about dodging. Or you could try and do both.

You are refering to Monks need to empower to use second parry.

Never had any trouble to master it. Easyest way is to just dont learn firts parry.

As i said its something that becomes easyer as you learn the game and gain more experience.

Still, mastering dual parry with others mastered can be done. It just requires more time and a higher rank.

This a game mechanic limitation. As is empowerment for monks, it makes no sense for a hand to hand fighter to have to empower to change from a agresive mood to a defensive one. It flows constatntly betwin the two in combat.

Mastering defences is the easyest thing to do. You just need to follow the warrior essay.

Dont practice whips, neither dodge. Master riposte then dodge.

Or do the hard way, dont practice defences untill riposte and wield a staff.

Also mastering hand to hand helps you master your defences.

I know this. Mastering riposte without ever practicing dodge is an unnecessary and unrealistic inconvenience. The original poster's idea fixes it by adding what I think is a very nice feature that could even have some RP capacity.

I'm not talking about empowerment. Makes perfectly good sense to have more defenses when you are focusing on defense. What I'm saying is that if you master dodge and first parry, because you need them to rank effectively (since most people at the lower ranks like to put a monk in the front), it is about 30 times more time consuming/annoying to master second parry because the other skills activate before a huge majority of the time.

I didn't really think about it RP wise, but it has numerous implications. A character could have a wounded left arm (assuming they are right handed), strong enough to hold and swing a weapon, but the impact from parrying is just too overwhelming.

Edit: Its seems really really strange to learn to parry with you off-hand first. Parrying is a far more difficult action than attacking (who knew fencing lessons at 6 would impact my views on a game at 20)

How easy is it supposed to be to master skills?

If it gets too easy, why not just have everyone start with all skills at 100%? Training can be a pain; it's boring and sometimes dangerous. It's a choice you make, and some have argued that it isn't necessary at all. Was it Gomanhor that said he used to rank his characters to 50 and not bother training at all, because it didn't make that much difference?

In my own experience, I've found that melee characters are very easy to train as it is. A warrior can rank to 50 and master all weapons, defenses, pugil, doublegrip, bash and trip along the way. Disarm and shield disarm can be mastered while you look for a group, and you will probably spend enough time looking a group from level 37 to 50 to finish riposte without a problem.

I try to only train when I can't find a group. For a couple of reasons: It's very annoying when someone leaves your group because he wants to master his new defense, and also because it gives you something to do when you can't get a group to rank with. Maybe people just don't like me, but it's not uncommon for me to go days without being able to get a group.

Yes, it does take a fair amount of planning to master most of your skills without taking time-out to train. I'm curious if it can be done with all classes. One of these days I'm going to make a blademaster and see how high I can get his anatomies on the way to 50 without sparring

I think it would be better if all character had their defences mastered at Rank 1.

Or not. That dificulty is a inerent factor of the class.

As is mastering Ray/Path on a cleric or divine intervention.

Or healing on a monk.

Ever missed a Lay Hands.

What about Stake....

thats is in no way my point...its not annoying to train a defense after you have 2 mastered in front of it. It is determental to your continuation of sanity. I just fought well over 75 rounds without a certain defense I am trying to train activating once...and its at 89%

I understood the original post to mean the new feature would be a toggle available to all characters who possess the appropriate skill, like autosac or autoloot or mercy. Autoparry, autododge, autoshield, autoriposte, autotwohand, that sort of thing. It just makes so much sense that a character should be able to choose which defenses they use. It is incidental that the new feature would ease training for a few classes with very 'deep' defenses.

How easy is it supposed to be to master skills?

This idea applies to melee defenses, it's something all classes would benefit from. It does not apply to all skills or spells.

If it gets too easy' date=' why not just have everyone start with all skills at 100%?[/quote']

Define 'too easy'. The game shouldn't be more complex or laborious than it needs to be. Skipping dodge so riposte can be mastered more quickly later on is a player's choice, and a pretty crippling one for the time they're without dodge. I've taken more than a few deaths with my warriors who tried it.

If you still think it'd be too easy, add a condition to some of the defense toggles. Say, forcing autododge be enabled along with autoriposte.

RIPOSTE

Syntax: AUTOMATIC

With their extensive training in combat skills, warriors have

the ability to evade their opponent's attack [ed: dodge!], look for an opening

in their opponent's defenses, and land a minor attack on their

opponent. The skill riposte is that ability.

Training can be a pain; it's boring and sometimes dangerous. It's a choice you make' date=' and some have argued that it isn't necessary at all. Was it Gomanhor that said he used to rank his characters to 50 and not bother training at all, because it didn't make that much difference?[/quote']

It depends on the patience and level of neurosis in the player. A character who learn skills quickly probably won't mind a few training sessions on the way to 50 as much as a character with a max intelligence of 14. For most characters, it's already very easy to train melee defenses.

Want to practice...

...dodge? Jump into a fight unarmed.

...parry? Equip a weapon and no shield.

...shield block? Equip a shield and no weapon.

...two handed? Equip a two handed weapon.

...riposte? Equip a weapon. Mastery could take a while if you have dodge and parry.

The original poster's proposal wouldn't make training skills very much easier, it's just a good idea with a slight bonus.

I don't really have a definition of 'too easy' when it comes to training. I think the question is, "How much effort should people have to put in to achieve their desired result?" I honestly don't remember being too put off by the amount of time it too me to master my skills with a stone giant warrior or a fire giant berserker. Training cleaves sucked a bit on the berserker, but that's because I got caught without a group at odd ranks, and didn't know where I could find mobs that were the right rank for me to train them on.

I'm sure there isn't an answer to how long training should take. Some people make it out to be the be-all-end-all for their character, but I don't think that's the case. There are some skills that are essential, maybe; ones that if you fail on them, you're in trouble. You want these as high as possible. But how much difference is an extra 20% on riposte going to make to the success of your character? I'd say probably not too much, and if some wisenheimer says, "Roughly 20%," they'll have to face my wrath :eek:

I don't mean to keep coming back to riposte; if you follow the steps in the warrior essay, it shouldn't take that long to train even if you have mastered all other defenses. Substitute any melee character's final defensive skill if you want to, it probably doesn't make much difference. If someone wants that last little bit, whether the edge is real or just perceived, they have to work for it. I don't really know how hard it should be... But if it only takes ten minutes at the fields to master it, why not just give it to people at 100?

I think it's something people should think about for any game; how hard should players have to work to accomplish anything?

well...it doesn't take 10 minutes or even 10 hours. I'm been specifically training this one skill for more than 2 days at least 5-7 hours a day.

You train wrong then. Even with one of the most stupid races mastering most skills and spells does not take more than an hour or two. Very few exceptions.

Defenses are not one of these.

Not sure if there is any correct way to make the code skip over a couple mastered defenses, but ok. I mean if there is some crazy secret I'm missing out on, let me know...cause I'm going insane over here. Developing a twitch from all the kills and the lack of improvement.

I'm sure there isn't an answer to how long training should take. Some people make it out to be the be-all-end-all for their character' date=' but I don't think that's the case.[/quote']

Agreed, proficiency in the defense skills is definitely NOT going to save you in PK if you don't know what you should be doing against your opponent. At 50, it's a pretty safe bet the other guy has mastered his and any shortcomings in yours are going to be costly even if you play the 'right' strategy.

But how much difference is an extra 20% on riposte going to make to the success of your character? I'd say probably not too much' date='[/quote']

Everyone needs an edge. If that means knocking another 20hp off your opponent every few rounds, I'd say it's enough of a difference.

I don't mean to keep coming back to riposte; if you follow the steps in the warrior essay' date=' it shouldn't take that long to train even if you have mastered all other defenses. Substitute any melee character's final defensive skill if you want to, it probably doesn't make much difference. If someone wants that last little bit, whether the edge is real or just perceived, they have to work for it. I don't really know how hard it should be... But if it only takes ten minutes at the fields to master it, why not just give it to people at 100?[/quote']

These toggles wouldn't make training much easier than it already is except for this one skill. This is a very very very minor bonus that as far as I know only one class could benefit from.

[Edit: One more thing I forgot. I played FL for a year before ever visiting the site or forums or reading any essays. New gamers who start their warrior wouldn't know that riposte can become difficult to master unless certain rather illogical steps are taken. It's happened to me, and I'm sure it's happened to others.]

nah...more than one class could benefit. Monks could, as first parry trains in offense, defense, and special teams (unempowered). Second parry is a tough one to train after dodge and first parry master since they activate and train easier than second

nah...more than one class could benefit. Monks could' date=' as first parry trains in offense, defense, and special teams (unempowered). Second parry is a tough one to train after dodge and first parry master since they activate and train easier than second[/quote']

It's been a while since I played a monk, and even then I didn't make it out of the teens.

As far as monks benefiting from defense toggles as well, it sounds like they'd make better use of them while training up second parry. Or someone could finally RP themselves as one-armed. I don't see how the side effect of making training slightly easier would change anything overall except saving some people some time.

My support for the idea isn't based on making training easier, since that is already easy enough except in the cases of warrior's riposte and monk's second parry. It's just that it makes so much sense. It'd be like being able to put your character into certain stances.

Do you play a pacifist? Feel like hiding behind a shield and not fighting back at all? Do it!

Are you a sneaky rogue? Would you rather evade your opponent without ever crossing swords? Dodge away!

That's all.

[Edit: At the risk of opening up another can of worms, maybe temporarily focusing on one or two defenses should boost the proficiency of those same defenses slightly. Just enough so you aren't gimping yourself too badly.]

Defenses aren't hard to train, most of the time you don't have to go to the fields I don't any more it doubles my training time, do it while you do your weapons at that "one" place where its really easy to train weapons at. I don't think this toggle thing is very needed, I have played several monks and second parry wasn't really that hard for me to train with first parry and dodge.

You train wrong then. Even with one of the most stupid races mastering most skills and spells does not take more than an hour or two. Very few exceptions.

Defenses are not one of these.

even with a half elf as a melee, training to perfection takes alot longer than that. Maybe you just know mroe cause of your pretty imm-ness.