Character creation... is overpowered omg!

Okay. The thread about rolling characters with maxed stats at level 1 got me thinking, there's a whole dimension of the game that's being ignored. Namely, the character stats. If every non-newbie player is rolling the maximum or close to it, there's little difference between one [insert race] and another, because they all have the same stat profile.

I've seen and done this myself, as have many others. You roll up your halfling or elf or faerie or whatever, and max almost every stat but one. By level 5 or so, your character's mental and physical physique cannot possibly become better. It has reached the pinnacle for that race. Anything more is impossible within the game, it would be breaking the laws of nature.

This negates one of the purposes of having stats at all, which is to help define your character by their strength and weaknesses. When all characters of a race share the same stats by their teens, one wonders why bother with stats at all (short of their use as a fun sandbox for maledictive spells) and not just have a race selection screen at startup with fixed stats for all.

One could argue that it isn't necessary for you to always search for the highest roll, you could take an average roll and RP your character from there. But when competition and the stakes of lost hours and EQ are involved, it just doesn't work that way. Everyone wants the highest roll because everyone wants to at least survive in PK. Not to mention the bonuses to their own character (wis for mana regen, con for health, etc.)

So what can be done to make the game use the stat system more effectively? Let me tell you!

First and most importantly, remove rolling for stats at character creation for each race and instead give the player a set number of trains to use. I won't suggest specifics here, as that's something to be decided later by imms. Doing this would make each stat much more important, as they would actually vary from character to character. It would also start all new characters (even the newest of the new) on an equal footing. As an idea of how much I think it should be lowered, I'll say less than half - and in some cases, a third - of current max rolls. Those races with a higher exp penalty should recieve a conservative number of additional trains.

[edit: This idea has been stripped.]

Second, remove the ability to convert practices from trainers. Seperating practices from trains would be necessary to keep people from dumping all their practices into training their stats as high as possible as soon as possible. Such techniques would favor the classes with few skills/spells, and cripple the mages, rangers, et cetera.

[edit: End edit!]

Third, maybe adjust the number of practices recieved upon reaching each level. Increment by one from current intelligence tiers, maybe. TBD.

Ideally under this system, even a level 50 character shouldn't max all of their stats.

I realize these changes would be pretty significant, and the ceiling for stats on some/all races would need to be raised to reduce the importance of every stat point and to increase the variety among characters of the same race. [Edit2: Maybe not.] Skill effects and such based on stats would still work, it'd just take longer to reach proficiency. I'm sure I haven't considered these changes for all races/class combos, so let's hear some criticism.

One important change would be adjusting the Constitution attribute to increase hitpoints retroactively as it is increased. This would prevent the trend of everyone concentrating on CON in the early levels.

Some very interesting points, once I think about it a little longer I will add some real comments, but i definately am intrigued.

I like this idea... but I know a lot of others won't...

If this change is made, I'd like to see a difference it has in my character's overall abilities in PK. If I got like 15 dex but 25str/con I want to see a big difference in my hp and damage. If I put all my things into int/wis/con I want see high mana, high hp, and lots of practices. I don't want to see the common things now.

Here's the thing. Doing that will cripple anything not trying to be a mage. Any mage would easily be able to dump everything into int, and if that's where most of the stats would be going anyway it would make them far too strong because that would be their most important stat. Now warriors, zerkers, and some rangers would all need str to be their most important skill. But that is necessary and if they don't max it, then they won't get practices. The way this game works you need to max int/wis/con, under your system you would have gnome invokers rocking maxed int/wis whish is well and good because under your system it's all they would need and they would still get their practices. But say an ogre zerker wants to have some fun he would have to max str/con or die many, many, many times; but oops! No practices! It just would not work.

Here's the thing. Doing that will cripple anything not trying to be a mage. Any mage would easily be able to dump everything into int' date=' and if that's where most of the stats would be going anyway it would make them far too strong because that would be their most important stat. Now warriors, zerkers, and some rangers would all need str to be their most important skill. But that is necessary and if they don't max it, then they won't get practices. The way this game works you need to max int/wis/con, under your system you would have gnome invokers rocking maxed int/wis whish is well and good because under your system it's all they would need and they would still get their practices. But say an ogre zerker wants to have some fun he would have to max str/con or die many, many, many times; but oops! No practices! It just would not work.[/quote']

That's why I asked for criticism.

So. We know that ALL classes and races really want to maximize their int/wis/con, but only some (melee fighters, some hybrids) also want to max their str. Sounds unfair to me, but I don't have the knowledge to weigh the burden of building up an extra attribute against the benefits of three/four/more attacks per round. Assuming it was decided this setup was unfair (it was never a problem before), what if certain classes that relied mainly on melee attacks recieved an automatic train in str? No player interaction, the game would simply increment strength by one point every ten levels or so. I see the difference in demand for trains you're talking about, but no simple fix.

[Edit: Better yet, what if every class recieved one additional str every ten levels? Walking around Aabahran is bound to build you up. Melees and hybrids would get their needed hitdam increases, while magic users wouldn't benefit much at all from the increase (but at least they'd get the same treatment).]

once again, this cripples melees and has little to no disadvantageous affects to mages/communers.

I guess it could be done that way, but in the end those trains always end up going to extra hp/mana as well. Under your system those would be null in void. This would do 2 important things. 1) It would help level the playing field between seasoned players and newer players. This would piss off seasoned players to an astronomical proportion. All of them that pinn without dying and whatnot would get livid that they do not have more extra trains to use on that extra hp/mana. 2) It would mess up the con stat. Remember the con stat governs HP gain, and after every 5 deaths you lose a point in the con stat so it would once again put newer players at a disadvantage since they would either A) Not be able to get that con back or Have highly gimped stats to make up for con gains.

I guess it could be done that way' date=' but in the end those trains always end up going to extra hp/mana as well. Under your system those would be null in void. This would do 2 important things. 1) It would help level the playing field between seasoned players and newer players.[/quote']

How is that a bad thing? I thought we wanted all the players we could get.

PvP is more entertaining than not, and there are some really ridiculously hardcore PvP MUDs out there, but for the average newbie I think Aabahran is still a bit of a challenge. The playing field could use a good leveling.

This would piss off seasoned players to an astronomical proportion. All of them that pinn without dying and whatnot would get livid that they do not have more extra trains to use on that extra hp/mana.

Things change. Nobody would have access to 'extra trains' converted from practices, I don't see the problem.

1. It would mess up the con stat. Remember the con stat governs HP gain' date='[/quote']

Did you read to the bottom of the first post?

and after every 5 deaths you lose a point in the con stat so it would once again put newer players at a disadvantage since they would either A) Not be able to get that con back or Have highly gimped stats to make up for con gains.

This is changeable. The changes I'm proposing would be enough of a hassle that changing something like this would be no problem. Does anyone actually like losing their CON along with their condition?

Let me just remind everyone these proposed changes were not designed to punish anyone, or buff anyone up. They were designed to add another level of depth to characters. These inconsistencies that have been pointed out should be solved, and ideally everything should be made as fair as possible for everyone. If anyone should have an idea on how to even things up, write it down.

Ok here goes one more time, I never said leveling the playing field was a bad thing.

Without everyone having extra trains it would make the stats of all stereotype classes (I'm sticking with ogre zerk and gnome bmg) have the same stats. Ogre Zerks would all have the exact same amount of HP, which is a little cheesy. So if anything adding an extra depth to the game it would just remove another.

Ok here goes one more time' date=' I never said leveling the playing field was a bad thing.[/quote']

Sorry, I didn't mean to twist your words, it was a rhetorical question.

Without everyone having extra trains it would make the stats of all stereotype classes (I'm sticking with ogre zerk and gnome bmg) have the same stats. Ogre Zerks would all have the exact same amount of HP' date=' which is a little cheesy. So if anything adding an extra depth to the game it would just remove another.[/quote']

Okay, rethinking it a bit. Players should keep access to trainers who can convert their practices into trains. They'd have a surplus of practices without a place to spend them anyway.

Originally the removal of that feature was intended to control the spending of trains, but it wasn't really thought all the way through. Since the character's maximum HP is governed by CON, if HP were added retroactively for each level the character has, there'd be no immediate pressure or permanent penalty to not piling all the trains into CON as soon as possible.

As far as everyone having the same HP, I thought the classes had different HP/level gains? Melees got more HP per level than mages, and vice versa for mana?

as well as a randomizer so you won't have the same hp/mana with each of the same race/class combo rolled, and perhaps a few extra goodies that Viri may or may not have added. The randomizer is a must though.

I'm still mulling over the entire prospect, working it out in my head from as many angles as possible, so I have no critisism/props to give other than taking an old idea and trying to improve on it. That is nothing else shows 'thinking outside the box'. I've thought of trying to work on that but only got as far as 'people try to max stats and will be maxed by 25th at the latest, why not just max them all from the start and limit extra trains'

Extremely Horrid idea!!!

One of the thing i play here is because of the stats creation.

I used to play a circle mud and your stats where all random, and only rolled once you atained Level 5. And people had to stat for hour to get decent stats.

And the Rom/Merc system of trains is a lot better than the other system.

But the most important thing is that the game is balanced for this kind of stat systems, you are supoced to have your stats maxed. That is what limits by example halfling in their power, because they cannot wield the good weapons.

Great defence horrid ofense.

Elves are very smart and have high int that means high mana, what if sudently you had 2 thieves, one human and a elf one.

You know that the elf will have lots of mana, but with the stats thing sudently the human thief can have more mana. Now transport this to blademasters.

The races have the stats that they do for balance purposes. If you changed it and made everyone with some differant types of stats, where they could personalize, nothing would be balanced. I agree with Mya, Zrothum, and M.O.P.

-zavy

Ok... Will the spell 'giant strength' be removed if this is implemented? Will caltraps, nerve, weaken, plague, etc, be toned down? Will equipment bonuses be toned down? Too much work... I mean, the game is balanced, why unbalance it?

Extremely Horrid idea!!!

One of the thing i play here is because of the stats creation.

I used to play a circle mud and your stats where all random, and only rolled once you atained Level 5. And people had to stat for hour to get decent stats.

That's terrible. Fortunately that's not even close to what I'm talking about.

And the Rom/Merc system of trains is a lot better than the other system.

Better than the system you just described? I agree.

But the most important thing is that the game is balanced for this kind of stat systems' date=' you are supoced to have your stats maxed.[/quote']

It is a fact the game's code is balanced to use the stats as they are now. It is not impossible to change.

That is what limits by example halfling in their power' date=' because they cannot wield the good weapons.[/quote']

Everyone expects the elf spellcaster to have a gigantic mana pool. Everyone expects the halfling blademaster to be impossible to hit. Everyone expects the ogre berserker to have a million hitpoints and insane regeneration. These race/class combos are specialists. In the system I'm talking about, each character would use the stats they build up over time in addition to their class skills. The racial stat limits you're familiar with now would be something few if any characters would be able to reach with ALL of their stats.

Specialists like the ones I described above (those characters who have a very high ceiling on the stat that is most important to their class) would of course be able to reach this ceiling if they really wanted to, but such specialization would actually cost something (fewer trains to go around everywhere else).

Elves are very smart and have high int that means high mana' date='[/quote']

You assume all elves have a high int. This is the problem. The way the system works now, it's so easy to max everything that elves having a maxed int even at level 1 is almost a certainty. I'm talking about reducing the number of trains given at character creation in order to force characters to actually give some thought into which stats they want to increase, with consideration given to how they want to play their character and their RP.

You know that the elf will have lots of mana' date=' but with the stats thing sudently the human thief can have more mana. Now transport this to blademasters.[/quote']

The maximum stat limits would remain the same. Halflings would still have the opportunity to be the most dexterous creatures in the land, it just wouldn't be an absolute certainty in all cases. Obviously, a halfling blademaster would want to focus on dexterity over most other stats. How a character distributes their trains would be up to them, as always.

Hrm...

Which essentially means that everyone will have the same ammounts of stats, no matter what race they play. People will quickly figure out which is the most effective intelligence in regards to bringing a skill to 75% in the least ammount of practices spent. Which wisdom gives the most practices per level. Which is the optimal constitution in tradeoff to the other stats. And about hp scaling with constitution... There would be extreme cases were a character would not have trained constitution, but still boosted it to max via items/spells. In the end melee types, spellcasters and communers alike will will end up with roughly the same stats. The optimal stats. And the varyity(sp) will be gone.

Guess I'm reluctant to change a perfectly fine system, even with the chance of improving it...

Ok... Will the spell 'giant strength' be removed if this is implemented?

Why would it? If anything, stat buffing spells and equipment would be much more useful than they are now.

Will caltraps' date=' nerve, weaken, plague, etc, be toned down? Will equipment bonuses be toned down?[/quote']

Some of them, yes.

Too much work... I mean' date=' the game is balanced, why unbalance it?[/quote']

Because right now, the stats system isn't being used to its potential. The races are stereotypes which allow the attributes of most characters to be safely assumed. This in turn leads to assumptions about PK. If everyone had to choose their stats more carefully, I think PK would be more interesting.

I don't think this idea is perfect, I want people to post reasoning for any problems they foresee and any solutions they think of. It is a lot of work, I don't pretend to think it wouldn't be.

Which essentially means that everyone will have the same ammounts of stats' date=' no matter what race they play. People will quickly figure out which is the most effective intelligence in regards to bringing a skill to 75% in the least ammount of practices spent. Which wisdom gives the most practices per level.[/quote']

People already do that.

Which is the optimal constitution in tradeoff to the other stats. And about hp scaling with constitution... There would be extreme cases were a character would not have trained constitution' date=' but still boosted it to max via items/spells.[/quote']

Thanks for pointing this out. I hadn't considered the boosting of constitution by EQ or magical means affecting anything but hitgain. I would not be in favor of such methods granting the same increase in maximum HP as a training session.

In the end melee types' date=' spellcasters and communers alike will will end up with roughly the same stats. The optimal stats. And the varyity(sp) will be gone.[/quote']

I'm not so sure about that. If it's implemented well, with a smooth scale of benefits for each point (above the base of per stat, there shouldn't be any major increases in benefits until the very high end (as we already see in the hitdam of very strong giants).

Okay. The thread about rolling characters with maxed stats at level 1 got me thinking' date=' there's a whole dimension of the game that's being ignored. Namely, the character stats. If every non-newbie player is rolling the maximum or close to it, there's little difference between one [insert race'] and another, because they all have the same stat profile.

Which essentially means that everyone will have the same ammounts of stats' date=' no matter what race they play. People will quickly figure out which is the most effective intelligence in regards to bringing a skill to 75% in the least ammount of practices spent.[/quote']

People already do that.

So you admit your system fails too? Then whats the point. I don't see how your system 'fixes' any of these problems, and I don't seem them as problems at all, or that they need fixing, and if it doesn't fix them, then why do it at all? Because you can is not a good enough answer

I'm probably not going to say too much thats new, but here's my two cents.

Rolling is, and has always been a reward for people who want to waste a large portion of time, or just get lucky. And to make a change to the degree you are recomending would completely change the aspects of the game.

I also really don't understand your whys either. I don't believe it's stated anywhere that stats exist to define your strengths and weaknesses, and just as easy for it is for you to argue that, one could argue that your race is what that strength/weaknesses are defined by. Races are in and of themselves diverse and have high and low stats that keep difference between classes.

As far as the point of removing the conversion of practices, you have effectivly nullified anything Gnomes have going for them. Gnomes who don't have all those extra trains dumped into hp/mana are just punching bags. As well as any race that can play a nonsterotypical class. There would be an excess of extra practices for Drow, Elves, Gnomes, Faeries and Ilithid, and part of the balance that exists in these races is that they have these extra practices that can be converted to trains to spruce up mana or hp. Then look at giants who arent getting enough practices, and using trains equalized them out.

Your proposing a system that changes an awful lot of FLs system. Change anything in practices and you change any high wisdom/low wisdom class a lot more than you change mid wis classes. Change hp distribution and the races with high Con/low Con get affected way more than the mid range races. You want to change a vast majority of the stat system, rebalance the entire game around it, around what reason?

New players are more than capable of logging into the newbie help section and asking what an acceptable roll is. And your system really does not promote the diversity you say, no person playing an invoker will ever submit into strength over int, ever. It's a complete waste of a character, you can't get much rp in if your condead. Every mage will boost int and wis before str and dex, every warrior will focus on str con and dex before they even worry about int, and the exceptions that exist to this are removed because you've seperated practices and trains. No point for an elf warrior to practice in one if he cant use the extra practices he saves, so he is going to always focus on Str, Dex and Con. And Since his race is limited in Str and Con, he only has a perk really in dex, why wouldn't he roll a slith? Elf warriors live on those extra practices, otherwise they should just roll a slith.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that every character in game is a Hero of some kind of renown. The NPCs are the basic people, you are the hero, and in being the hero it makes perfect sense for you to have maxed racial stats, because your the cream of the crop.

The big question that has not been answered here is 'why?' Why is this worth it? What good does this do?

The game stats are balanced right now, and rolling doesn't overpower anyone because every has the ability to do this, and one person rolling maxed stats does not affect anyone elses ability to roll max stats. It comes down to time willing to be spent, I refuse to spend more than an hour rolling. That extra two trains, not worth it to me, but if someone else wants to waste those two hours for 20 hp or 20 mana, more power to em.

Races are the diversity in the games stats.

Players are expected to max out stats.

To balance this for each race you would need to make a lot of special cases.

This current system is not broke.

This current system is not overpowered.

This current system already is set to promote a more evened max stat. How many people remember rolling for each stat?

Str: 20 Int: 21 Wis: 15 Dex: 12 Con 18 Keep? Y/N N

Str: 12 Int: 20 Wis: 20 Dex: 20 Con 17 Keep? Y/N N

Str: 18 Int: 17 Wis: 18 Dex: 17 Con 18 Keep? Y/N Y

That sucked, this new system drasticly lowers stat time and increases 'fairness' to all players, puts less focus on getting the best possible roll.

I don't like this idea much at all.

WC