Pali Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 "we are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, it is hardly irrational. Black men commit murders, rapes, robberies, muggings and burglaries all out of proportion to their numbers." Unfortunately, I can't fully disagree with him here. Statistically, he's right - black men do commit crimes out of proportion with their numbers, and the case is easily made purely from probabilities that one should have a little more caution when it comes to passing a random black guy on the street at night versus a random white guy. However, this fact is not in and of itself indicator of any specific reason behind this. I could argue that atheists are more moral because there are less of us in prisons than we should have proportionally given our population - but there are factors beyond being an atheist versus being religious that do a far better job of explaining it (for instance, atheists tend to have greater education and come from wealthier backgrounds, both of which drastically reduce a person's likelihood of committing many crimes). The color of the skin is not what is causing the problem - how the color of the skin is and has been treated by society for the last millenium is causing the problem. Atheists may tend to have greater education and financial opportunities than the greater population - black people in the US have the exact opposite situation. Great strides have been made in attempting to fix this... but as the numbers show, plenty more still needs to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I'd like to see those statistics Pali. Or when you say 'statistics' do you really mean 'I just made this up'. Then, i'd like to see these 'probabilities' you have calculated based on these 'statistics'. There is absolutely nothing you can tell about an individual's criminal history by solely examining skin color. We need to stop labeling people based on external attributes. How about most of the infamous serial killers being white guys? It doesn't mean anything. Seriously man, do you even know a black person? I know plenty, and none of them have robbed me. There is a statistic for you. Everyone is a person, so take them as they come. Get to know people based on their own merits and don't make generalizations on math that you and Ron Paul make up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I'd like to see those statistics Pali. Or when you say 'statistics' do you really mean 'I just made this up'. Then' date=' i'd like to see these 'probabilities' you have calculated based on these 'statistics'.[/quote'] According to the 2000 census, white people made up 75% and black people 12.3% of the US population. Unfortunately we'll have to wait another year to get a more up-to-date figure, but I doubt they've changed more than a couple of percentage points in either direction. Now, according to the FBI, last year whites were arrested for 69.2% of crimes, blacks for 28.3%. According to the US Department of Justice, "At midyear 2008, there were 4,777 black male inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents being held in state or federal prison and local jails, compared to 1,760 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents and 727 white male inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents." So blacks are obviously also convicted far more often than whites of crimes (and while I don't have anything right now to back this up, when last I saw information regarding the subject, blacks are also sentenced more harshly). Percentage-wise, yes, they are arrested more and make up a greater proportion of the prison population than their percentage of the total population would indicate they should. There is absolutely nothing you can tell about an individuals criminal history by solely examining skin color. Se seriously man, do you even know a black person? I know plenty, and none of them have robbed me. There is a statistic for you. Let me be absolutely clear here. I am not and have not been arguing that any specific individual should be treated as a criminal solely because of his skin color. I am not and have not been arguing that there is something inherently wrong with black people and that this causes them to commit more crimes. What I am saying is that the last several hundred (thousand?) years of societal development around the world has left black people, both specifically in the United States and more generally world-wide, in a worse position than white people - and that this disparity has serious consequences. I would in a heartbeat argue that were blacks and whites considered total equals by all of society, were they to start out in the same backgrounds and have access to the same levels of education and opportunity and were the color of their skin never a factor in their dealings with others, both colors probably have pretty much equal crime rates. But this is not the situation we are living in, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 It is true that the socioeconomic gap experienced by minorities in this country is large. Alot of that can lead to gang activity and related perceived criminality (by any group of people). However, as you let on your numbers could simply reflect discrimination in the justice system. Also, I would remind you of the basic rule that correlation does not equal causation. In the end, the numbers don't matter because they serve no scientific purpose. The real question is what can we do to lower crime rates in the United States across the board and what services can we provide to citizens to prevent a criminal lifestyle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 It is true that the socioeconomic gap experienced by minorities in this country is large. Alot of that can lead to gang activity and related perceived criminality (by any group of people). However' date=' as you let on it your numbers could simply reflect discrimination in the justice system.[/quote'] If anything does, it's comparing the arrest numbers versus the prison populations. White to black, the arrest ratio is a bit above 2-1... but the white-black prison population ratio is 1-7? (Edited because I'm a little too intoxicated to remember percentage calculations correctly and I'd rather not make myself look like an idiot by doing them wrong. ) Also, I would remind you of the basic rule that correlation does not equal causation. In the end, the numbers don't matter because they serve no scientific purpose. The real question is what can we do to lower crime rates in the United States across the board and what services can we provide to citizens to prevent a criminal lifestyle? I'm willing to argue that greater education and financial stability play enough of a causal role in making a criminal lifestyle a less-likely choice that they'd be a good starting point. Of course, I have no real data to argue that on - but it's a hypothesis I'd love a chance to actually test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I'm willing to argue that greater education and financial stability play enough of a causal role in making a criminal lifestyle a less-likely choice that they'd be a good starting point. Of course, I have no real data to argue that on - but it's a hypothesis I'd love a chance to actually test. Housing would be a great place to start. So many people are forced into projects and ghettos where exposure to lead paint and piping has a real effect on childhood development. A link between exposure to lead and development has been made, including an expected drop in cognitive function and test scores. Regardless of ancestry, the nations poor are kept poor by a very real increased exposure to chemical hazards with its tag along costs to both finances and health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 See, in my head, under "financial stability" I was including things like access to decent food, housing, health care... necessities of life, basically. I should've made that clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 i blame it on that rap music, and that hip-hop music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-A Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Hate to break it to you, but everyone uses their power (how ever much that is) in pursuit of their own interests. Its human nature, and its why true capitalism works as well as it does. Oil is going to be around for quite a while, its just a matter of where you get it from and how costly it is to extract. If you think someone is making ridiculous amounts of money off of it, invest in their company. Be part of those profits. Chances are you will be disappointed by how little they do make compared to companies in other industries. I hate to break it to you but that isn't really the contention of my comment above. The broader context (which is pretty clear) is that the motivation of some major military events undertaken in the last six to eight years have been motivated by this oil reliance - and who is going to control it. Releasing the world from this simply removes this motivation from this kind of destructive action against other countries. Ironcially, I believe nuclear power has yet to come into its own and will surpass all others types of 'alternative' power as the next major source for humans. Even if this were to happen and 'release' us from oil reliance it would only make the targets of future military action geographically different instead of making the situation any better. In fact, most sources of energy be it oil, coal, solar, nuclear, wind or others there will be some defining advantage somewhere in the world. Whether it be control of resource or simply land mass/surface area there is always going to be someone with a big target on them because they can produce more energy cheaper for whatever reason. It just so happens we have several 'international bullies' in the international community so chances are there will be more wars on 'terror' in the future. Then again, Rome razed Carthage for what is considered pretty menial reasons and suffered for years afterwards. I'm sure someone in the politial literature arena would be able to write an interesting thesis on the parallels between that and the War on 'Terror' and GFC timing..... Its not so hard to see history repeating itself here. Unfortunately there is universially ONE thing that our species is exceptionally good at. Killing each other. If you look at all the technology developed and things done over the course of history by far the most 'efficient' thing humans do is kill and/or maim other humans. We are so VERY good at it - its not really a surprise when the chips are down we're completely happy to attack other humans for resources - be it oil in my example or water in Mali's. Uranium/yellowcake will be next and I happen to live somewhere that we have that resource - though I don't think I'll see the conflict I suspect in my lifetime, but then again the average age is increasing all the time.... L-A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Is this thread still alive??? Gotta love political discussions in a online's game forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted October 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Nuclear energy bad! Chernobyl! Bad nuclear energy! BAD! Besides, I don't want to glow in the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Nuclear energy is very feasible if it is done correctly and if issues regarding access and disposal can be dealt with properly. Mind you, those are two very big IFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.