Evils

[-Totenkopf-]

Cool, you guys have given me much material to deconstruct, so, lets make a start.

Tot, as you insist to drag it here. You were given three !! chances to change how to use that skill.

Two chances, then removal, for using the skill once more.

Only then this ONE single skill, that should not really influence your pk ability much, was taken. If you complain about being gimped in any pk sense now, that just shows again that you used this skill not as it is intended to be used.

We've already been over this at great length. You seem to intermix OOC and IC terms. The imm staff generally urge everyone to play the game from an IC perspective, becoming part of your characters and then go about saying don't do this if you intend to PK. Right, I still stand to my opinion that if my character have a IC motive (IE, roleplay reason) to do something, they will do it.

Stop whining. The current staff deals with problems with a lot more patience and gives multible warnings were there was just BOOM denied in 1.0.

I never got denied in 1.0, and had multiple pinns. I was also the best part of 15 or 16 and probably a right smart arse bastard of a kid with an ego.

This is the second time I've heard of ooc connections with timing of logins. But I've never seen it myself. Maybe its that people happen to play around the same playtime because its more fun when people are actually on with you? Not a flame but a serious question because I haven't seen it at all yet.

Gotta open your eyes or something. You'll pick up patterns appearing. I've had many people log off, just to log on with Allies come, meanwhile there has been no other lowbies or anything to log on. This happens far too many times to just be coincidence. Then, they all log off at once too. Unusual combos operating together against me, etc etc.

Not sure what you mean about that gimp stick. But if its because of that single skill that I had to go up against nearly every time I fought your vamp. I'm quite astonished that you feel that way. It was the single reason for my death many times. I even gave up my life a couple of times because I solely cared about finding ways to prevent it. But than again I've only been on the receiving end.

Probably on 1/2-1/3 occassions, unfortunately when your going up with someone who only has to sit there spamming a lag skill to kill you (provided the lag sticks) you need to find other measures to find a weakness. Your lack of knowledge of this particular skill opened up a can of worms. Even when I used this skill against you, often you didn't get pk'ed. It would be VERY easy for you to pretty much overcome the problem completely, considering in 1vs1 combat, I had no chance of out damaging you. You only died a couple of times. I find it quite amusing that after killing Imseik a few times, you cabal leave on him and give up. Then a shelfed character (a qrace of all things, which I don't believe you should be able to 'shelf') rocks up and is immediately hounding my arse. Your intent to kill me and only me, when other evils/evil qraces around is quite weird. This is a form of OOC connection, between one persons characters. Before our characters had even had first interaction, you crusaded against me and only me, when other evils were on. You didn't have a bounty, I had no reason to kill you so I just ignored you. I've got only one character I play, as such, emotions cant flow over.

Just curious have you ever been on the receiving end of it? If so than I can understand your stand on it but if not...

Yes, Alestim used it on me about 10 times in 1-1.5hrs on a dwarf cleric. It was annoying, however, knowing how it works, and where the cures are, I had no problem. I'd cure it, within a couple of hours be back at it again, just to have it happen again. Alestim never got anywhere near killing me and I didn't post anything on prayer. I saw no problem with it. In the end, I overlooked it until it was too late and ended up becoming an undead, but what gives, the vampire cant touch me then anyway.

In my own opinion that is one of the most single overpowering skills I've ever faced and don't believe vamps need it at all esp one of the effects that it causes which seems the most minor of the others at first. On the other hand I don't believe we should remove the skill in its entirety or put limitations on its use. I know its difficult for others to deal with certain skills and strategies that seem invincible. That must be the reason for such animosity. Even I had to let it out on prayer forum of which I am ashamed of, so I can definitely understand how other less patient/mature players might react. Now that I know how to deal with it, its not nearly as bad but still pretty much means death if you get hit by it which seems easily done and don't know how to prepare for it beforehand. Ofcourse the same can be said about many other skills in fl but I can't go into the specifics about why I find this one to belong to a different category. Now that I think about it, it must be the reason vamps have always been considered op until now because I never understood it until I had to deal with it so often. I am interested in a civil discussion with about it with a vet such as yourself if you are interested.

I know your prayed about it, why, because I was summoned on, and I have only used it multiple times against one person at that point, and that was you, so its not hard to put two and two together. If I use it against you more and once, you know your doing something right, and I have some severe dramas fighting you. Arvelo and Nyra are the only people who've succumbed to its wrath on multiple occassions. After the first instance with Arvelo when I talked to Anume, I said if its overpowered (I used the term broken) then I was more then happy to have it altered. She was going on about how it wasn't a PK skill and should be only used for RP with sparing use for PK. Well, if this is the case, I told her that maybe the PK assisting side effects of the skill should be removed. Eshaine's reply was "The skill is not broken and does not need fixing." Well, much controversy ensued, as it was within my roleplay to use it, and was apparently not overpowered. Whats the problem then? I asked what is using it 'for pk', as IMHO I was using it for RP which may or may not mean they got pked. Eshaine gave me a response:

"It is quite simple. If your intention is to kill someone and you then use skill to achieve this, *skill* is used as a pk tool. I sure hope you rp the kill anyway, as you are qrace It is the intention that counts here, not if you do a silent kill or rp properly, which you usually do.

If you *skill* someone with the intention to have them turn and then rp with them, that is use as a rp tool. Death is not the goal here.

Most importantly, once someone is turned they should not try to kill another undead, nor should another undead try to kill them. From what I have seen so far, censored rp here is very lacking, but I have still to run into him to chat."

Simple? Not really, its my characters intent to bring Death to the victims marked before them. Both turning undead, or being 'pked' resolve this problem. And how do you gauge my intent, are you mind readers? I continue to engage after the *skill* as of course, if I do not continue to apply the pressure, it will VERY EASILY be cured. If they die trying to cure it, then very well. How can you tell what my intentions are, when it is used, naturally, I have to continue applying pressure, and keeping them away from sources of a cure or there will never be opportunity to use it as an RP avenue. They could have turned and been immune to me. It appears to me that everyone just wants to PK and enhance their chances of killing me, so the very first thing that is done is finding a cure.

It is staff policy to deal with punishments in private. The first time you brought this BS onto the open forum I bit my tongue and said nothing. If you want to bring it here, we can discuss it.

There seem to be alot of these unwritten 'policies'. How are we to know them. It was dealt with in private. My initial post in this thread brought absolutely no light to what had transpired. You guys have turned it personal and brought it to life. I am more then happy to discuss it, as I feel perfectly justified given the information that was given to me.

You abused a skill repeatedly and were spoken to multiple times by the IMMs about its proper use. I have personally watched you abuse the skill on more than one occasion - right after you were spoken to, no less.

Yep, and that was probably when the skill was removed, for use one more time. Interestingly, you call it abused in that instance, as I had absolutely zero intent of trying to kill the person then. Per Eshaine's definition, I wasn't abusing it at all, and was using it rightfully.

You were not "beaten with the gimp stick" - don't flatter yourself. Either drop the attitude that you could never possibly be wrong, and everyone else is screwing you over, or continue knocking the staff that gave you more chances than we should have, and I'll be happy to ban you.

I've got the attitude? This isn't the first time you've spoken to me with a bad attitude. You've done so in prayer forum before, making comments without all the info and none the less, locking the thread to deny response. Ban me if you have to or you feel it justified. It will only affirm my opinion in this regard. I don't know what I have done to you, either in past or present, but it must have been something grave.

Go to Search and look up all the posts made by you. The majority of your posts are, in fact, whining about how you have been inconvenienced by some thing or another. Be a constructive member of the forum, or don't be one at all.

Done, 25 last posts on the first page of results. Number of whines, well, I guess that depends on what you consider whining is. Worst case scenario, maybe 4 or 5. I don't know what your definition of majority is, but I assume >1/2. So no, I don't feel the majority of my posts are whines, and feel that comment was unjustified.

I'm sure this 'skill' is being worked on, as far as timer, etc. Then again, I'm unsure if the IMM staff want to bog other Vampires down because one abused the skill in no RP manner at all.

Tsk tsk tsk, as already stated, Eshaine has said there is nothing wrong with the skill, and there will be no changes. In regard to the second part of the sentence, it just confirms my thought that you've not a clue at all. Abused? I still don't think so particularly think so, yourself and Arvelo are the only two people who've seen it used more then once. You have previous issues with my character handing your other characters there arse, so if course, your OOC feeling are flowing over. You've complained previously about my vamp, in regards to other skills, on other characters. What, do you just want vamps removed as a whole, or, maybe, you just want me to piss off so you've got no challenge. Sounds like a bloody boring existence to me, but hey, you've got your way. You are getting sick of dying, even though our current record with your current character is only 3vs2 in my favour. This seems like some pretty even fighting, even with that skill at my disposal, however, it appears you wanted MORE of an edge. As for RP, I have perfectly good RP reason use it, I've already been over that in depth with Anume, the issue is, I am using it for 'PK' too excessively. I consider that a grey area still though, as apparently its intention that counts, and how people can manage to read my mind, I am still at a loss. You are losing more and more respect with me. After what you've done to me personally, the grape vine speaks much ill against you as well.

Regardless, as we all know this staff likes to put in 20-30 changes in at a time, not one every other day. Would get kinda tiring having to re-build the .o's everytime you changed something, and then rebooting. So hopefully, soon, we'll see a change where this has been looked at

Don't hold your breathe.

[Anume]

Tot, that is just enough. If not only one level 59 Imm but several Imms tell you you are wrong, and you still simply do not accept it, that is your problem. I've personally had enough of this whole discussion, you do not accept any correction or even other opinion, thus making discussing this completely pointless. I'd say you got even more than three warnings considering how much this was discussed both on prayer, in game and in private messages. What you do not seem to get into your head is that this skill should be MAINLY used as a rp tool and rarely in pk. If you spam a skill at someone again and again that is not using this skill as it should be used. A rp use is not, "I can rp I need to make you run / kill you" in this case at all, it has the intention of actually making the person temporarily un-killable for you.

Enough of this however, this is about evils and not about one vamp

[tassinvegeta]

Gotta open your eyes or something. You'll pick up patterns appearing. I've had many people log off, just to log on with Allies come, meanwhile there has been no other lowbies or anything to log on. This happens far too many times to just be coincidence. Then, they all log off at once too. Unusual combos operating together against me, etc etc.

Ahh I see what you're saying. Since i'm a goodie and there are few evils around that may be the reason I don't see it as much as you. This is something that really can't be stopped though. But if its happening to you I'd say you're doing something right. Of all people you should know this. I'm sure many have resorted to such tactics against your slith warriors Loucheran and Sslandith.

Probably on 1/2-1/3 occassions, unfortunately when your going up with someone who only has to sit there spamming a lag skill to kill you (provided the lag sticks) you need to find other measures to find a weakness.

Trust me. If I had other more effective skills I'd use them. But my saders lack of skillset is another issue that will probably never be changed and is thus reserved for another topic. I also see a couple other tactics that can be utilized quite well against me as well as your ability to simply outmelee me.

Your lack of knowledge of this particular skill opened up a can of worms. Even when I used this skill against you, often you didn't get pk'ed.

Really? I remember getting pk'ed all the time because of it unless I was able to get away long enough to get turned instead. But you're right, alot of the problem came from my lack of knowledge on it. I can fully admit that.

I had no chance of out damaging you. You only died a couple of times.

Don't believe either of these statements are quite accurate.

I find it quite amusing that after killing Imseik a few times, you cabal leave on him and give up. Then a shelfed character (a qrace of all things, which I don't believe you should be able to 'shelf') rocks up and is immediately hounding my arse. Your intent to kill me and only me, when other evils/evil qraces around is quite weird. This is a form of OOC connection, between one persons characters. Before our characters had even had first interaction, you crusaded against me and only me, when other evils were on. You didn't have a bounty, I had no reason to kill you so I just ignored you. I've got only one character I play, as such, emotions cant flow over.

I actually don't believe in using OOC connections between characters. So I try hard to avoid them. Giving up on Imseik was not just the result of your vamp but others as well. Salith, Zelithar, Zenophobynt, Kaylia, Caidon. You'd just use me to re-equip when you lost your gear. LOL. I wanted to give up on him for a long time and realized human was not the best of choices. I know I'm a much better pk'er than that. I'm sorry you feel I should've kept playing him for your benefit.

Additionally I'm in the navy and created this dk and sader because they aren't able to lose there most important weaponry/armaments due to my deployments. So ofcourse my sader would be the next obvious choice after I stopped playing Imseik. If you feel I only went after an E vamp and kept dying over and over was because of ooc hate, coupled with the fact that I had previous plans on switching cabals and am now T in my second cabal than maybe you should look again (these accomplishments have taken me months) and are not just the result of some guy named Philantees . I know of plenty of occasions you hunted me relentlessly whilst I was just trying to ignore you and find cures to that vamp skill. Remember when I kept going into shadow grove over and over? LOL. Like you said earlier you're not a mind reader and neither am I. BTW I'm much like yourself and hardly play more than one character at a time.

Yes, Alestim used it on me about 10 times in 1-1.5hrs on a dwarf cleric. It was annoying, however, knowing how it works, and where the cures are, I had no problem. I'd cure it, within a couple of hours be back at it again, just to have it happen again. Alestim never got anywhere near killing me and I didn't post anything on prayer. I saw no problem with it. In the end, I overlooked it until it was too late and ended up becoming an undead, but what gives, the vampire cant touch me then anyway.

This is why I believe that seemingly op skills shouldn't just be removed altogether. But you gotta admit things might've changed your opinion of the skill if you didn't know how to cure it or weren't a dwarf cleric.

If I use it against you more and once, you know your doing something right, and I have some severe dramas fighting you.

Thanks. I have great respect for you as a player and am quite honored to be playing fl side by side with you as equals. No homo.

She was going on about how it wasn't a PK skill and should be only used for RP with sparing use for PK. Well, if this is the case, I told her that maybe the PK assisting side effects of the skill should be removed.

That's a good idea. But maybe its there for a reason? Since you claim to have needed it against some combos. I'd suggest removing or lessening the pk assisting side effects of it rather than remove the skill in its entirety.

Eshaine's reply was "The skill is not broken and does not need fixing."

If this is true than why must we put restrictions on it? My opinion is that if we must put restriction on anything (most recently being the enchantment of armors in divinie mandates) than theirs a problem with the code. If something exists in the game and allows you to do it, you'd best be sure that gamers are going to find it and exploit it because guess what? That's what it seems to be intended for. Its to be expected. Instead of blaming the players maybe we should start looking elsewhere...

There seem to be alot of these unwritten 'policies'. How are we to know them.

Written and esp unwritten policies = bad. I despise them with a passion.

You guys have turned it personal and brought it to life.

True. I believe i'm partially at fault for this. It also was Eshaine's post that gave me more information on the subject that prompted me to believe that I was involved. However you are entirely not at fault from your original post either. We all just need to hold hands and sing songs together.

Yep, and that was probably when the skill was removed, for use one more time. Interestingly, you call it abused in that instance, as I had absolutely zero intent of trying to kill the person then. Per Eshaine's definition, I wasn't abusing it at all, and was using it rightfully.

No offense here Eshaine but you have to admit this is a perfect example of the problem with written/unwritten policies and skill restriction rather than code changes.

I've got the attitude? This isn't the first time you've spoken to me with a bad attitude. You've done so in prayer forum before, making comments without all the info and none the less, locking the thread to deny response. Ban me if you have to or you feel it justified. It will only affirm my opinion in this regard. I don't know what I have done to you, either in past or present, but it must have been something grave.

Great and lose another player out of our ten that are probably playing now? I also have issues with the short temper of some of our current Imms. I just hope we can all learn from these situations and deal with them in a mature manner.

Done, 25 last posts on the first page of results. Number of whines, well, I guess that depends on what you consider whining is. Worst case scenario, maybe 4 or 5. I don't know what your definition of majority is, but I assume >1/2. So no, I don't feel the majority of my posts are whines, and feel that comment was unjustified.

A bit immature for that to be pointed out esp if its not accurate. I'd say that's deserving of an apology.

You've complained previously about my vamp, in regards to other skills, on other characters. What, do you just want vamps removed as a whole, or, maybe, you just want me to piss off so you've got no challenge. Sounds like a bloody boring existence to me, but hey, you've got your way. You are getting sick of dying, even though our current record with your current character is only 3vs2 in my favour. This seems like some pretty even fighting, even with that skill at my disposal, however, it appears you wanted MORE of an edge.

If this is in response to a certain player, he is known to be a bit immature. And obvious exaggerations like this shouldn't bother you. I have been on the receiving end of this plenty of times. I esp liked it when I purposely decided to play a mino after years of no one else playing it than all of a sudden its op. And have yet to see anyone since destroy the pb with one.

RE: Eshaine - I don't think posts like this are pointless. I believe they are hints as to ways we can improve this game. I'm not sure how Virigoth would handle posts like this. But under different managment I've seen alot of it appear to be pushed under the rug and if the problems are ignored it creates animosities toward imms/players and worst of all the game mechanics and sadly it spreads hence the biggest reason for our ridiculously low pb now.

[f0xx]

My opinion is that if we must put restriction on anything (most recently being the enchantment of armors in divinie mandates) than theirs a problem with the code. If something exists in the game and allows you to do it' date=' you'd best be sure that gamers are going to find it and exploit it because guess what? That's what it seems to be intended for. Its to be expected. Instead of blaming the players maybe we should start looking elsewhere... [/quote']

This made me quite an impression since I am now sure which vamp skill you are talking about. I personally don't have a problem with it, since it can be cured and I don't see what all the fuss is about. It is like complaining about blind. Yes I've died because of it too, but that was only because I didn't know how to cure it i.e. it is my OWN mistake. Basicly all my deaths to Philly were because I didn't know what her skills do and how to counter them.

If a skill can be countered/cured then we simply cannot talk about it being OP. How it is supposed to be used, I've said it before in the prayer forum concerning a certain PSI skill (which has no way to be countered) - my problem is not with how a player is using a skill. It is with the skill itself. If a skill allows such usage, then hell, ofcourse he is going to use it. If I was on Toten's place I would have done the same, of course having in mind you didn't know how it is "supposed" to be used. Continuing to use it the same way after being warned and talked to though, is quite silly.

Lets stop here though since he is now banned and cannot reply.

[jibber]

Tsk tsk tsk, as already stated, Eshaine has said there is nothing wrong with the skill, and there will be no changes.

As you saw, I posted before Eshaine, not after. So so so sorry.

In regard to the second part of the sentence, it just confirms my thought that you've not a clue at all. Abused? I still don't think so particularly think so, yourself and Arvelo are the only two people who've seen it used more then once.

I think I complained about the skill once, and it did not end in me dying. The ways to cure it are few and far between, and have many many affects. Maybe in the past in '1.0' it was 'acceptable' to use that skill. But now, you know, this year, today. 2009. It's not acceptable.

You have previous issues with my character handing your other characters there arse, so if course, your OOC feeling are flowing over.

Don't flatter yourself. My previous characters had little, to no interaction with you whatsoever. If they fought you, they died, I'm sure, and I never complained about it. I'm so sick and tired of everyone pulling the whole 'OOC' crap out of their @$$. That sentence -really- pisses me off.

You've complained previously about my vamp, in regards to other skills, on other characters. What, do you just want vamps removed as a whole, or, maybe, you just want me to piss off so you've got no challenge. Sounds like a bloody boring existence to me, but hey, you've got your way.

I have not complained about your vampire in general. Just the skill. Once again, lame, OOC finger pointing. Getting old fast here..

You are losing more and more respect with me. After what you've done to me personally, the grape vine speaks much ill against you as well.

Done to you personally? Wait, who is going OOC here? You can take that grape fine and use it as toilet paper -- I don't care. Respect? That little post of pure OOC goodness, complaining about OOC, etc, whatever, is where you lost any ounce of respect I -ever- had for you. (and I don't even know you! Geez..) Before you go pointing out OOC cliches', perhaps you should look in a bloody mirror, buddy.

[Anume]

I see I should have locked the thread right after Tots post, perhaps removing it first. Vamp skills are not openly to be discussed. This skill is usually NOT a problem as very few vampires use it for pure pk purposes continually. If this happens, we usually talk to the vamp ONCE, problem solved. Ask Uhril.

I gave a ban to Tot as part of his reply was open flaming. You guys should have known better than to reply to it, or even flaming back. The topic has been discussed in DEPTH with him both in private messages and on prayer. There was no need to drag it here. If you feel you would like to add more, do so on prayer. Sorry to the creator of this thread, I don't think it will go back to the original topic.