The most powerfull vs all class.

[Fiere]

Ah hah, but what about in town, with a trib there? I believe firestorm's illegal. Invoker walks into town, thief blackjacks and gags, no cry for help, dead invoker.

[Psycho Child]

I used to keep it going in town, sure I was outlawed and banished, but who cares? And why as a pinn are you going into town? Do you WANT to die?

[Fiere]

I see people in town all the time. Numero Uno, say your invoker is being hunted, you want some protection, stroll into town with Marty there. But regardless, I'd say we're both right, it just comes down to a matter of smartness/paranoia. A smart, paranoid invoker ain't gonna go anywhere without it. But there are plenty in the realms who are either not smart enough, or not paranoid enough to do so, 100 percent of the time. Not to mention, I can't say this for sure, but does the antimagic trap drop firestorm? Because if it does, well, there ya go.

[Psycho Child]

Yeah, but how are you going to get the antimagic trap into the room so the invoker can set it off? And you are correct, there are alot who arn't that smart/paranoid. This is assuming all skill/equip and whatnot are equal, so basicaly situations that would never happen. And if I'm pinned, I never go hide behind tribunals/justice. EVER. I'd delete first.

[Fiere]

Antimagic: I'd just attack the invoker, stay to get a tad pounded, run like a pansy, set the trap. And to the justice thing...props to you.

[Psycho Child]

An invoker who falls for that gets what they deserve. Maybe I'm just alot more paranoid than others though. Just because I make preperations for attack by ninja's in real life doesn't mean I'm paranoid right?

EDIT: The invoker could also follow, and with detect traps up see your trap, set up a firestorm, disable the trap, resume the chase.

[Designated_Driver]

No, although if you stand in a circle of fire to avoid them, I'd likely suggest counseling. Poisoning yourself on the other hand...

[Psycho Child]

Hey no, no hating on the ring of fire.

"I fell down into a burning ring of fire. As I went down, the flames went higher..."

P.S. I've had counsling, It didn't help. And my shrink never wants to talk to me again.

[Mister E]

Id say ninja because of the assassinate skill.

As for ninja>thief, I am not so sure...I do not think it is that clear cut.

Under rank 30 a thief has the edge, at pinn the ninja does, but not by a lot I dont think.

[Deykari]

Ninja with a cursed staff will give a thief a good rogering.

Well, what I mean by that is, that they will definately have the upper hand.

Dey

[Mister E]

Yeah of course they have the staff pugil angle. But if the thief gets a blackjack in he could easily win.

One of my favorites, which I dont see enough of, is to plant two demon talismans on a blackjacked victim, if you can do it quickly enough then set a couple traps, lay in with a nice dual backstab, they are gonna be at 30%hp by the time they flee, eat a throw and hit a trap. If its a ninja they will likely be below a quarter hp by then and if you switch to dual maces after the backstab and they have no weapon (thanks to the talismans) ninja=dead.

Of course this is hypothetical, but in the case of thief vs ninja I think the ninja will out melee the thief everytime, but when I am strangled as a thief I am much less worried then when I am blackjacked as a ninja. The two races also play a factor of course.

[Warpnow]

Thief won't hit a trap if smart.

Vanish

where

flee city.

go invis, get into another area, vanish.

Get into another area, vanish.

You can easily outrun the thief.

Rest to full.

Strangle thief.

blindness dust.

Poison Dust.

Open with grapple, keep grappling. Dead thief.

No thief can outmelee a smart ninja...

[Mister E]

All I am saying is that ninja is not a guaranteed win over a thief by any stretch. Also, any smart thief will have plenty of detect invis pills/potions. And in some areas vanish wont help you much at all, it could take you two rooms away down a straight line, the thief will catch you before vanish lag wears off. Generally with rogues whoever gets the first sleep skill in wins, but not always. Grapplelocking is also far from a guaranteed win. Again, race matters a lot for dex comparison, eq also of course.

[Lexi]

No thief can outmelee a smart ninja...

Just as no ninja can outmelee a smart thief. Everything goes around theoretically. If thief gets the blackjack, if ninja gets the strangle, if there is enough time to plant, if staff is cursed... don't count too much on the "if's". To me, considering each class' skills, the ninja is superior. Caltraps, pugil, nerve, blindness dust makes them much more combat oriented, which in the long run makes them the winner, if they're at equal player skill and equipment level. That would also be a reason for the hefty ninja experience penalty.

In my opinion it usually goes like this: skill>class.

[Pali]

If there are no qclasses involved in this, ninjas are the best against everything. Hands down.

[myrek]

Any class can beat any other class when you catch them unprepard.... But it you want to go fully prepared vs fully prepared and fully trained vs fully trained @ 50:

elf invoker - spells from nearly every vuln coming at you too fast to think about

blademaster/monk - they've got something for everyone

dkn/necro - powerful mals and charmies

over-rated:

battlemage/cleric - too weakened by spells dropping

thieves/ninjas - it is too easy to go around towns now

[Psycho Child]

All other things equal, ninja>thief. Grapple, nerve, pugil, blindness dust, poision dust as already discused. Not to mention ninja selectables, and that spirit damage spell which can be a good chaser skill. While who gets the first skill in will make a large difference in the outcome of the fight, over a series of 100 battles I would say with a fair ammount of confidence that the ninja will win a majority of the fights.

[Psycho Child]

Any class can beat any other class when you catch them unprepard.... But it you want to go fully prepared vs fully prepared and fully trained vs fully trained @ 50:

elf invoker - spells from nearly every vuln coming at you too fast to think about

blademaster/monk - they've got something for everyone

dkn/necro - powerful mals and charmies

over-rated:

battlemage/cleric - too weakened by spells dropping

thieves/ninjas - it is too easy to go around towns now

A fully preped ninja has you fully studied. And doesn't need hide to kill you.

[Goomf]

Thief > Ninja. By far. You talk about blindness dust and whatnot. That won't make a huge difference once a thief blackjacks you (A trap to dispel your poison) and steals/pries nearly all of your health/dam/hit eq. Afterwards, he just needs to set a trap or two and backstab.

[mya]

I said no choosing Qraces/classes, because Vampires are the BEST.

Just because you cant choose a Qrace does not means that you dont get to fight them.

And Thieves and Ninjas suffer a lot more than regular classes vs Undead.

[Psycho Child]

Thief > Ninja. By far. You talk about blindness dust and whatnot. That won't make a huge difference once a thief blackjacks you (A trap to dispel your poison) and steals/pries nearly all of your health/dam/hit eq. Afterwards' date=' he just needs to set a trap or two and backstab.[/quote']

He wont have time to pry more than a few pieces, and with a norem staff he still won't be able to out melee you. Ninja > thief.

[Fiere]

Vial jump with blackjack. Course, goes the other way as well. And ninja race more likely to have a vuln. Feral backstabbed by thief? Yeah...

[Psycho Child]

There are ways to get sanc that lasts longer than the two hours of strangle/blackjack so that don't matter.

[crackwilly21]

For me, it is Duergar Cleric, I could take down just about anything with the right prep and timing.

[Deykari]

You say thief will blackjack a ninja. That's only one possibility. Sure, it's inevitable that eventually you will be caught unprepared but with my two ninjas, I have blackjacked before I've strangled them a couple of times, and if they have got me, I've been poisoned and woke up. Sure, if they blackjack and pry they have you, but the chances of that happeneing can be reduced - same for the thief reducing chances of being strangled.

Dey