All the Zealots....

[f0xx]

Mindlessly capturing and retrieving the standard is one of the things I hate most about playing FL.

I would agree here, but I am yet to see a good enough alternative to the standard.

[-Totenkopf-]

CTF used to work OKAY when there was a large player base. There were usually multiple agressors, and multiple defenders. Now its generally a 1 vs many (2, 3, 4, whatever) scenario. I have been known to just log off in these instances (me vs 3 or 4 tribunals rings a bell, really unusual occurence that one) and other people have also done likewise at times. Sometimes it just turns into a completely waste of time and effort.

I personally think something needs to be done to balance the tides in these instances. Perhaps strengthening of your guard dependant on your odds vs your enemies.

[English lad]

I'll hold my hand up to hating the CTF aspect of Cabal Warfare as well.. Makes RP nearly impossible, and just people who are on top to beat down the weaker guy further.

I've also logged off once or twice when faced with certain death due to cabal numbers - and with a game that is in serious need of a playerbase I don't really see how anything that makes players who want to be playing log off is a good thing.

[f0xx]

I personally think something needs to be done to balance the tides in these instances. Perhaps strengthening of your guard dependant on your odds vs your enemies.

Not a bad idea, the problem remains though - no matter how strong the cabal guard, it WILL fall to a number of attackers. Also, knowing the guard is stronger, they will now have an excuse to come for you with numbers.

[-Totenkopf-]

Not like they dont already come in numbers.

By stronger guard, I mean one that will give them a beat down, and will require both of the agressors to kill, ie, agressor two must ward off the single defender in order to help agressor 1 take the standard.

This would stop the whole "i'll just keep them occupied, you take the standard"

In uneven situations, I always end up getting gang banged. Why, because I personally think its priority to engage the person attacking your guard, and ward the away. Meanwhile, the person that attacks you to distract you feels that THEY should have your attention, so even if you flee from them and attack aggressor 1 at the guard, they'll come in and jump you anyway, even if you are already fighting aggressor 1.

Thing is, if you don't go for the person trying to take your standard, you are going to loose it. If you do attack them, you are going to get gang banged, forced to flee, and loose it. Its a loose loose situation. Frustrating as hell, especially if its multiple STRONG characters at your door.

Sure you could just suck it up, take a death (or ten), get your corpse looted by two people and truck on, however, this is just going to lead to you dying over and over and over, and likely entering delete delete in frustration. Another loose situation.

[Kyzarius]

Sure you could just suck it up, take a death (or ten), get your corpse looted by two people and truck on, however, this is just going to lead to you dying over and over and over, and likely entering delete delete in frustration. Another loose situation.

thats not always the end result.

Also I have gotten more promotions in cabals (once went from M to T instantly) by charging into the fray.

two enemies on? buy Life insurance and CHARRRGGGEEE!!

[Grim_Reefer]

I don't even know why we need standards in the first place. Cabals should be more like political parties and less like paintball teams.

[L-A]

I really like the CTF aspect - it gives me more to do that have to attempt a break into desolation for that sook that doesn't want to fight even though they have cabal powers. Face it, so many players would rather NOT fight due to the risk.

I think some of you are just by sooky-la-la's and not wanting to risk your shinies in battles you may lose. I remember Virigoth onces saying that FL (especially cabal warfare) wasn't meant to be some elite dueling situation. So you have to fight multiple opponents who full loots at once - big deal. I honestly struggle to remember a time a cabal when this wasn't the case, for myself at least. Its close to the most fun you can have in FL.

I honestly believe its the players killing cabal warfare - take my last experiences at lvl 50: 2 v 1 (sometime more) - I have eq so I'm not logging off. They do infact get my standard. One of these players has a full adeptus suit and pretty much anything else they could want. Do they drop the standard and come looking for me (after all, having a standard is fine but killing the enemy cabal members if the only way to actually break the cabals power....) - nope. They pitch a tent at their cabal - three rooms from the guard. They don't want to engage without me first going for my standard or having an easy flee (back to guard) if anything doesn't go 100% their way.

Their friend (a less combative class starting with h...) - did they go looking for me, perhaps going to report back and send out the other guy as the hunter? Nope, sitting with his mate.

A third guy logs on - can ANY of these three stoogers be bothered so much as walking half the area to engage me (yes, I was sitting about 20 rooms away seeing who'd be first to come party) - nah. They have expanded the tent to a marquee and are all sitting near the cabal. No hunting, no chasing.

Of course, it could just be these three - nope, had at least two other cabal members do the same. Players might know who I am by saying this - but I started the verbally bashing the characters (IC of course) pretty hard everytime I saw them. Why not? Their eq was better than mine, had more cabal members but still won't hunt me down like a dog. THAT is what is wrong with cabal warfare - players playing not to lose instead of to win (from a PK point of view).

In several of the above cases I did die by extending myself a little two far and/or attacking them while they were fully ready. The truth is if you're smart you can get eq and make yourself nigh on impossible to kill at your cabal by waiting (espeically if you have the standard and numbers on your side). There is very little risk involved if you setup your defense. The same isn't true if you've got to go out and hunt someone down who is willing to fight.

So that's my take - sooky players who don't want to lose shinies are killing the cabal warfare fun. One of the verbally bashed in the above scenario came out for me a couple of times (after a verbal savaging for letting me sleep ten rooms from his cabal while he sat there....). Once I got the upper hand and made him run and the second time I got beat down like a five year old throwing a tantrum at K-Mart. Although those interactions were brief it was a hell of a lot more fun than having to 'charge down the defenders' who camped their cabal.

L-A

[Sandbox]

I don't even know why we need standards in the first place. Cabals should be more like political parties and less like paintball teams.

this made me lol. I kinda wish there was a better alternative to CTF.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I enjoy CTF.

[Celerity]

If you have a standard...why WOULDN'T you camp to defend it? You KNOW they have to come retrieve it...you know they will go straight there. Where else would they be? Why do you have to search for them in that case?

You are right that nobody really wants to take a lot of risks. If I am a rogue and a heavy melee has my standard, should I just stupidly run in while he is sitting there? If I can increase my chances to survive by defending my standard right at the altar, that is probably what I am going to do.

This may not be an 'elite 1vs1 setup', but that is how the game pretty much works. That is what IMMs encourage. The game isn't balanced for 2vs2 or 2vs1...not at all.

[English lad]

As always LA gives me a different perspective. It is what you are talking about that annoys me about CTF i guess. The mindless game of grab standard, go sit at base with all the advantages waiting for them to come.

CTF in itself isn't necessarily bad - its just when pk becomes CTF and nothing else that it is a very bad thing. So how do we resolve this issue? I think the problem is that CTF has so much importance on it from a mechanics issue - loss of cabal powers, loss of entry to cabal, cp gain from having your enemies standard etc...

Maybe the bonus/malus of cabal warfare need to be spread out a bit more, rather than just lumped into CTF.

Ideas?

[L-A]

If you have a standard...why WOULDN'T you camp to defend it? You KNOW they have to come retrieve it...you know they will go straight there. Where else would they be? Why do you have to search for them in that case?

You are right that nobody really wants to take a lot of risks. If I am a rogue and a heavy melee has my standard, should I just stupidly run in while he is sitting there? If I can increase my chances to survive by defending my standard right at the altar, that is probably what I am going to do.

This may not be an 'elite 1vs1 setup', but that is how the game pretty much works. That is what IMMs encourage. The game isn't balanced for 2vs2 or 2vs1...not at all.

Re-read my post - its not 1v1 in those situations. Since you put your hand up tell me - you have 2 or 3 v 1 numbers advantage over the enemey cabal and their standard. Are all three of you going to camp the standard - because that is what I'm seeing from many players these days.

What about when your character is equipped and the other guy isn't? Still going to sit there? Not against the rules and sure, its safe. Boring as hell though.

If you're at your guard and I'm fifteen rooms away do you still sit there?

1v1 and you won't move from the guard - that's easy: Engage for one round and flee. I've got until I heal up and have my spells again until I have to come back. Since you're going to just sit there (which is a lot less viable on a class that can't hide or camo) I'll know where you are. Boredom might kill you first but if you're not going to take any risks hunting me down I'm certainly not just going to risk dying by overextending myself on your turf. Actually, who am I kidding - sooner or later I probably will but hey, that's what the game is about for me. When I kill you I'll have achieved something. If I die you managed to kill me with the help of a mob - hardly an achievment.

In these situations its almost impossible to prevail when the person defending won't take risks. I'm not saying its against the rules - but I am saying its lame. To each their own in how they play - but having all the eq I want and sitting about at my cabal waiting for someone, no thanks. I think its bad RP as well - you have the standard and you're resting on your laurels. Not a great way to win a cabal war.

I find that situation boring in the extreme - to the point of where I will leave the cabal undefended and go and hunt the other cabal members down. 9/10 times this means they come in when I'm out and get an easy retrieve - but so what? I got the standard once, I'll get it again.

L-A

[L-A]

Double post.

L-A

[Imoutgoodbye]

What about when your character is equipped and the other guy isn't? Still going to sit there? Not against the rules and sure, its safe. Boring as hell though.

When I kill you I'll have achieved something. If I die you managed to kill me with the help of a mob - hardly an achievment.

I think its bad RP as well - you have the standard and you're resting on your laurels. Not a great way to win a cabal war.

Yes, I'll still sit there. If that's what I have to do to win. I do have your cabal standard after all....and mine...

If you die to me and the mob, I've achieved something. I kept the standard and no one's b*tching at me becuase I lost it.

It's not bad RP. Unless they're all Knights. And if I have the standard, I'm already winning.

[Twinblades713]

Maybe capturing the standard is just a goal - and can be one of many. I have a few ideas.

1. Make capturing the standard provide normal bonuses but have a duration. That way, capturing a standard and returning it is beneficial, but doesn't support this notion of cabal camping. For example, maybe get increased cp gain for 50/100 hours or something for capturing a standard, while reducing the enemy's. Then it can be done again later and there are no "standard recovery" politics.

2. Get rid of "Safe" rooms. ie. Cabal guards. This way a character can't just afk inside and farm cps while sitting on a standard.

3. Promote killing enemies more, instead of just sitting at standards and running away if you fail. I know this seems the most ridiculous, as pk IS killing enemies, but think of it as just drawing away from using camping methods, and more like using hunting methods.

4. I've suggested this before. Make army leading SIGNIFICANTLY AND VISIBLY boost your armies. That way, generals (caballed characters) can actually have showdowns at important cabal army warfare sights. Make having a general present double the power of an army IF another general is in the lands. If not, then there is still a bonus, but with largely diminished results.

5. [New idea] General Duels. While warfare is often dirty and lopsided (tags, 2v1 when necessary, etc) have two generals duel for cabal favor. Often times people would do this to decide the fate of a battle without losing throngs of men. Could cause no fleeing from the area or some other sweet coding that I have no knowledge of. Just an idea.

6. [New idea] It might just be me, and if it is someone could enlighten me... But make cabal worth and influence MUCH more easy to track and change. For instance, allow cabals to tribute to each other in a clearer fashion. Cabal influence and relation was always pretty ambiguous to me.

7. [New idea] Give each cabal a specific goal to always be accomplishing that's set apart from "defeat your enemies because you don't like them and never will." Many cabals have this given to them already. Syndicate can actually qualify how much money is deposited into an account that could easily be created and gain favor that way. Watcher would value the death of citizens and highly regard the assassination of Tribunes. Savant could qualify the amount of magic in the lands, somehow. Maybe a counter on spells cast in combat? Warmaster could qualify their favor based on the amount of duels occurring in the land. This way every cabal is actually BEING a realistic cabal with ideals that they enforce. Warmaster might not get everyone to join them, but if they are causing more challenges to be had, their mission is somewhat accomplished. If Knight sees less evil in the lands, they will deem their job being done well, etc.

Edit: I'm aware a few of these ideas are already technically in place, but they are so insignificant that the aforementioned CW kind of disregards them. Things like tributing and having gold for the Syndicate are already around, but hardly visible and hardly game changing. I propose to make them important.

[jibber]

I've never really been one to sit at my cabal and wait for someone to come and try to retrieve, unless of course, that someone is a healer. No point in looking for something that can: where;com gate mob;sleep.

Anyhow, I sometimes find myself sitting around inside my cabal WAITING for some sort of action, after I've retrieved the majority of any preparation I need. I find it safe and suitable to send armies and things. However, the first time I see a cabal enemy, I'm usually outside of the cabal looking for them. Most of the time they may have a combo that will rip me to shreds, but you'll be surprised what happens when you actually FIND someone trying to prepare to rip you to shreds.. It's a nice feeling to completely stomp on that jerk-off who full looted you 10 times and gloated about it, because he sat behind his cabal guard

The whole cabal war thing wouldn't be the same without CTF. I think what we need here is a change in the politics that players abide by while doing the CTF. Like L-A said.. sitting at your cabal guard with 2 of your best buds in your cabal waiting for someone to retrieve is boring and lame. (I've had it happen a LOOOOTTTTT lately) However going out and looking for your cabal enemies is a lot more fun. Those who play way too conservatively.. honestly? Stop getting into cabals if you won't fight, defend, or what have you, if there's SOME chance you just might die.

Lately with the new chars I make, I try my very best to try to fight anyone and everyone who wants to have a piece of me, and then try to find those who don't want anything to do with me. It improves both PK and RP if the party I'm trying to communicate with will have it -- of course, there's some cabal enemies who don't say a bloody thing while you're doing the whole CTF. They're too determined to win or get the jump on you. I can't count how many times I'm talking with someone who won't say crap back, to reply with some stupid remark to get them to at least say something, and then them showing up immediately before I hit enter, and owning me right then and there.

I slap myself in the forehead, all the time, but I still end up doing it a lot. I try to RP more than I try to PK in CTF. I get more out of it. Good for the person who just killed me and jacked all my stuff who didn't want to RP with me before -- I bet he'll quit/delete later anyway

Thing is: We need to change the way every player thinks, if its possible, about how CTF is to be played. As Celerity put it, most of is are too worried about dying, what the odds are if stacked against us, and what 'percentage' we have at winning or dying. We're not worried about RP, we're worried about the longevity of our characters if we were to win or lose in a CTF environment.. which is definitely the wrong way to go about things. And I'm unsure exactly how to go about changing this since most of our playerbase has this sort of thought.

.. And I'm guilty of it, and have been in the past. But I'm improving over time

[f0xx]

I like many of your idea Twin.

4. I've suggested this before. Make army leading SIGNIFICANTLY AND VISIBLY boost your armies. That way' date=' generals (caballed characters) can actually have showdowns at important cabal army warfare sights. Make having a general present double the power of an army IF another general is in the lands. If not, then there is still a bonus, but with largely diminished results. [/quote']

Double? Many times I've had enemies who simple sit and defend their standard. They take NO risks at all. They do not attack my cabal. They do not come after me. I've had moments when I have to kill their guard and break inside the cabal just to get them out of it. It is quite sad considering they are equally equiped and my combo is not their bane and they are holding a T for example. What I mean is, a general leading his army should give not double but quadripple boost to their strength. Even more perhaps.

5. [New idea] General Duels. While warfare is often dirty and lopsided (tags, 2v1 when necessary, etc) have two generals duel for cabal favor. Often times people would do this to decide the fate of a battle without losing throngs of men. Could cause no fleeing from the area or some other sweet coding that I have no knowledge of. Just an idea.

Great idea, I like it very much, although I don't know how to make it fair for all combos in all situations.

6. [New idea] It might just be me, and if it is someone could enlighten me... But make cabal worth and influence MUCH more easy to track and change. For instance, allow cabals to tribute to each other in a clearer fashion. Cabal influence and relation was always pretty ambiguous to me.

I don't know if cabal worth even exists in cabals that can't raid/defend raids. Just as I don't know if cabal influence exists in cabals like trib, syndi, watcher. It should definatly be much more clearer. Also, cabal influence is a bad thing and should be removed. I cannot understand how a cabal who doesn't have a single bastion in an area can own it.

7. [New idea] Give each cabal a specific goal to always be accomplishing that's set apart from "defeat your enemies because you don't like them and never will." Many cabals have this given to them already. Syndicate can actually qualify how much money is deposited into an account that could easily be created and gain favor that way. Watcher would value the death of citizens and highly regard the assassination of Tribunes. Savant could qualify the amount of magic in the lands, somehow. Maybe a counter on spells cast in combat? Warmaster could qualify their favor based on the amount of duels occurring in the land. This way every cabal is actually BEING a realistic cabal with ideals that they enforce. Warmaster might not get everyone to join them, but if they are causing more challenges to be had, their mission is somewhat accomplished. If Knight sees less evil in the lands, they will deem their job being done well, etc.

I like this one too, although I don't know how it would turn in the end and how fair it would be. It sounds very good on paper, I am not certain how it would look in reality though...

[f0xx]

Also, retrieving a standard should not be that easy when it is 1 on 1. Many times people do not defend at all because retrieving is so much easier...

[Reccum]

Only problem with quadruple leadership bonus is that it encourages the whole stomp your enemy while he is down. You kill them and full loot them, then you have a bunch of free time where you can rip their lands apart. With that in place we would see a LOT more log outs upon loss rather than re-equips and re-engaging. EQ still plays way too much of a factor...There needs to be faster ways to get back on your feet (and no life insurance).

[Twinblades713]

So make it so that losing your standard is bad, but a done deal. No worry about recovering, you already failed so you suck up some loserdom and prepare to defend next time, or better yet, ATTACK!