Tribunal Issues

[Grosek_]

Well thought-out and articulated disagreements are always welcomed. It is just that most people just whine and moan instead of giving good reasons why they disagree. I like the RP behind Tribunals and the return of evils as well. Props. It was an idea that was a long time in the making, and thanks to Behrens, was actualized.

-Malchaeius-

I know there are enough players out there who feel that Tribunal could use some tweaking, so I was thinking that any gripes or complaints with good reasoning could be brought together into one thread. Now I'm not the most articulate guy, but I have been an active Justice/Tribunal hater for damn near a year now. I've played both sides (handed out beatings as a Justice/taken some beatings from Justices), so I have a fairly unbiased opinion on the matter. The only thing that could discredit me is that I haven't played pinn since Tribunal came about, but then the only changes that I've seen from Justice to Tribunal have given a bit more power.

The #1 issue I have with Tribunal is that they effectively have the use of a Zero lag murder command. Not only does it initiate combat, but it also basically puts them in the back row, taking no damage, but still handing it out. I easily took advantage of this when I played my Halfling Blademaster Justice, Urdric, and there was borderline no one who could touch me, I don't even recall being assassinated, though perhaps it happened once. Within a month I racked up nearly 200 captures with ease. The only competition I ever found was with anyone who could take out my hound quickly. The only two I recall as able to do that were Nortak and Messalantha, for obvious reasons. From the look of things though, that pair of scissors was taken out of the equation as it appears that the Blood Guards have a good bit more hp than the old hounds.

I would propose to fix this issue, that if the Tribunal chooses to have their guard initiate combat, it puts a 1/2 round to 1 round lag on the Tribunal, much the way 'or rescue ' works, since that is essentially what is happening here.

Just my starter thought, more gripes to come...

[Guest emp_newb]

I disagree. Tribunal is functioning, to my understanding, EXACTLY how it should. Everyone is comparing them to Justice, Tribunal is NOT justice. It is an Empire. They want the city to be theirs, they decide the laws, not just enfore them. I put my hands together for the idea that spawned them and I am glad that Behrens put it together. Everything will always need tweaking, BUT if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Emp_Newb

[Grosek_]

I really have no problem that they can want everyone to their hearts content, say, just because a person offended them inside or outside of town. But being that two cabals are pretty much auto-outlawed, and there is basically a law written that states they can want anyone if they feel it is just, I think they have too much power over criminals. I really have no problem that they can want everyone to their hearts content, say, just because a person offended them.

My problem isn't that they make the law and enforce it, they just have more power than they should to capture criminals. A good example of this is the "success" of Syndicate and Watcher and Outlaws in general once Tribunal got some members who understood how to make use of their skills.

[The Greased Weasel]

Tribunal is a new beast, and nobody has figured out how to bring it down

Just like warmasters in 2.0 when they were put in...save nobody could figure out how to use them, now warmasters are scary.

Figure out how to beat the beast instead of trying to change the beast

[Grosek_]

The thing is that its really not a new beast. I've noticed very little differences between Justice and Tribunal except for a change in name and stats for their charmies, which seem to be better for the cabal overall, and the loss of a skill in exchange for a better one(the old skill didn't work properly on Outlaws, the new one does(I'm assuming)). Now before Justice went away, who was able to best Chrinchton and his crew?

[Raargant]

Many people. Chrinchton was darn close to condeath, and it was as a blademaster besides, THE most difficult to kill melee in the game, IMHO.

[crackwilly21]

Chrinchton was a badass. I got VERY close to killing him on a few occasions, and he did the same to me...noone ever got a kill off between the two of us. So I give him props. But, I don't wanna derail the thread.

I think Tribunals are fine the way they are. They are supposed to be tough, and they are supposed to be "unstoppable". They can be killed, for sure, but it takes some doing, and a good bit of skill/preparation/and knowledge. I don't see why everyone is pissing and moaning about em. They are fine the way they are, and I am sure almost any immortal will agree with me. Everyone thought blademasters were invincible when they first came out, now does everyone? NO! Blademasters are easy to kill if you take the time to learn what needs to be done. Everyone that hates Tribunal, needs to get it together and find a way to take em down, instead of griping. It CAN be done, and I'd imagine it WILL be done sometime. Instead of whining, learn your enemy, and take advantage of what you can.

[Acerbity]

They've already started the 'faction of evil ganging squad/good ganging squad' recently, or so I see. Oh well. I guess if you can't kill your enemy we need to resort to ganging! Yeah!

*rolls eyes*

[crackwilly21]

I said nothing about ganging, if thats what your saying, Acerbity.

[Grosek_]

Eh, from what I've heard a ninja committed himself to assassinating Tribs, so I suppose that is one way of going about it. It just sucks if its the only way anyone is taking down a competent Tribunal.

[Pali]

The #1 issue I have with Tribunal is that they effectively have the use of a Zero lag murder command. Not only does it initiate combat' date=' but it also basically puts them in the back row, taking no damage, but still handing it out. I easily took advantage of this when I played my Halfling Blademaster Justice, Urdric, and there was borderline no one who could touch me, I don't even recall being assassinated, though perhaps it happened once. Within a month I racked up nearly 200 captures with ease. The only competition I ever found was with anyone who could take out my hound quickly. The only two I recall as able to do that were Nortak and Messalantha, for obvious reasons. From the look of things though, that pair of scissors was taken out of the equation as it appears that the Blood Guards have a good bit more hp than the old hounds.[/quote']

I agree with this wholeheartedly. No other cabal has a charmy that autoattacks, lags, blinds, disarms, tosses 3 attacks, is sanced, and has tons of HP. Well, 'cept Knight elders, but their charmy doesn't autoattack targets. While it makes perfect sense in game, I do feel that it makes them a bit strong. Also, far as I know, there's another power that Adjudicators get at a certain rank that Pominsu was a fan of which feels very borrowed from 1.0 Savants. It's incredibly strong, and makes staying alive as a criminal VERY difficult.

Note: I love the idea of Tribunal. I'm just laying out personal opinion that their skills feel a bit on the strong side. I'm biased in that I haven't played one, and since I hate playing lawfuls, I probably never will play one, so I'm only coming from the criminal's side. I recognize and accept that.

[Sneak]

I see three things that should be toned.

The autoattack from the charmy - which is very very old.

The skill trusted adjudicators get to capture wanted, its simply too powerfull.

The old skill that the justice sentinels had that now the royals have. Before it did not work on outlaws - and as far as I recall only in cities (or very near). I got e******* in the elemental canyon by Mortyneious - that should NOT happen.

Else than that I got no problem at all with them beeing powerhouses - after all they are the representive of 3 HUUUGE cities.

[delfytheelfy]

I dont fully agree on the auto attack, sure auto attack I have no problems with, but the fact that I can be camo'ed, no pets, and they walk through and I get reamed out of camo because the pet can auto attack through camo/invis/hidden.

That and that other skill that I am not sure I can mention here... marty and pom and raniku are the only ones who have used it on me... basicly a healer.

[Guest emp_newb]

yea, I can agree with that seak, I thought that was usable only in town. That does seem a bit overpowered that it is usable out of town. Also, perhaps make it to where guard captain stays with the TOWN GUARD. I mean perhaps you can have something like a tracker to go with you while you hunt criminals/wander the lands.

[Sinavestos]

Eh, the flipside is that if an outlaw comes along that *can* deal with all the Trib skills, the Tribs are in a world of **** ... because they *have* to go after him. The fact of the matter is, if you are prepped and ready, and you can kill a Tribunal ... you don't exactly gotta look far to find them. They're stuck out in the open at all times ... I don't think any other cabal has to deal with that, so giving them a bit beefier skill set seems justified to a certain extent. As to the charmie attacking with no lag thing ... haven't experienced that at all yet, or at least not that I've noticed ... that does seem a bit much, but again ... they're a very strong cabal with very exploitable weaknesses, so maybe it'll end up balancing out once Watcher/Syndi get some beasts in their ranks to even things up.

[Acerbity]

I see three things that should be toned.

The autoattack from the charmy - which is very very old.

The skill trusted adjudicators get to capture wanted, its simply too powerfull.

The old skill that the justice sentinels had that now the royals have. Before it did not work on outlaws - and as far as I recall only in cities (or very near). I got e******* in the elemental canyon by Mortyneious - that should NOT happen.

Else than that I got no problem at all with them beeing powerhouses - after all they are the representive of 3 HUUUGE cities.

I can name a few things -other- cabals can do without, too. Believe it or not, you just named three of the key skills that help Tribunal do what they're supposed to do: capture criminals. All three of which are very easily overcome. I'd help you out in telling you how, but that'd just take away my fun. Look for weaknesses, saying that something is overpowered just because someone got you with it hardly means a thing, if you didn't experiment.

EDIT: Mortyneious.. ahahahahah

[Ex-D&Der]

I don't like it at all. I can understand the newbie protection argument, but I feel like there's something else going on here. It's almost as if Tribunal is supposed to embody someone's true belief of what constitutes goodness. This I don't like--imprinting the game with a bias in favor of a certain view of morality. As if what goes on in the game should be moral. I feel like it's just confusing the game with reality.

And of course you know that I don't like the idea of healers and vampires in the same cabal. I don't think a situation should ever arise where you could be fighting a vampire and healer simulatneously. I don't like the argument that this is "interesting role-play opportunities." It's just plain backwards according to any standards of the game up until now. It's like letting dark knights into Warmaster, or rangers into Savant or something.

Finally, it seems that with their various abilities, Tribunal is more powerful than the other cabals. An IMM pretty much admitted this at one point. I don't like this from a balance point of view.

Tribunal was developed to solve a problem, which is that the cities were too unsafe. The cities were too unsafe because there was too much senseless PK going on. The solution to that is enforcing role-play, not creating an uber-Justice cabal.

[Mudder]

The old Savant ability... Yeah its pretty hardcore. It's not bad in idea, but should have some pretty hefty limitations on it. I believe there are some already. But I had it used on me a lot and Pommy didn't seem to worried about using it again. Maybe more than a time restriction it could cost a ton of mana? Maybe even make it only.. Crap can't say it here.. Make it more like vanish.

E******. My only problem is it cannot be blocked. Maybe make it maledictive? Or make the duration much shorter. (personally I think its a very long duration considering its effects)

The "auto-attack" - It's not an auto attack. Though there is no lag for it, that I know of. Maybe just one round would be fair.

I only had a justice once. Never hit 50 though. But like others, I hate being lawful... I'm totally a neutral type player all the way.

[Grosek_]

DELETED.

Thank you.

[Mudder]

Oh, well my old 2.0 Justice couldn't do the auto thing. Maybe because he wasn't trusted yet.

[Raargant]

Guys, you are revealing WAY too much information. Can it.

[Grosek_]

Yeah, there was alot I missed until I actually read the help file. I played two Justices that I could have had a much easier time with, but I continued to treat the 2.0 Justice charmies the same as the 1.0 Justice charmies.

[The Greased Weasel]

Maybe the imms should develop a new cabal so people will have something else to bitch about being over powered and get off their effin backs

[Warpnow]

I would, personally, like to see taking down a justice charmie more like PKing than Mobkilling. IE, less hp, more raw damage. As it stands now certain classes simply -cannot- take down the blood guards, I mean, you seen an invoker try? Its pathetic.

I'd also like to see outlaws being banned from town, IE, the guards act like actual "guards" of a guild or cabal or such.

I also think it would be neat if certain tribunal skills used to apprehend criminals(the one with crazy lag) failed more, and also...a certain one which stops people from escaping was broken by combat. So, by stopping them from escaping, you get one chance to catch them, before they can run. It would still serve effectively, but it would be less of a be all end all.

[Grosek_]

Don't get me wrong though, I do think that Tribs should be powerful enough to protect the towns and keep outlaws at bay, but it should be the result of the characters pk skill, not how well they can control their pets.