Drow (male) clerics

[The-Nameless]

I have no clue how I double posted.

[f0xx]

What are you talking about? How can I possibly use that to my advantage? It is a damn RP suggestion and has NOTHING to do and will NOT influence PK in any way.

You really argue for the sake of argument...

You know what, **** that, I don't care whether the Lolth cleric I fight will be male or female. It was just the RP I was after, but obviosly very few people care about the RP while most will argue change, no matter how small and insignificant it is.

Having a male drow cleric who communes to Lolth is like having a dark knight blessed by Irumeri.

[Celerity]

Who is in control, the drow male cleric who communes with Lloth or the drow female thief who has no direct contact with her?

[f0xx]

Who is in control' date=' the drow male cleric who communes with Lloth or the drow female thief who has no direct contact with her?[/quote']

Lolth does not commune with drow males.

In FL, the one who is stronger will be in control no matter if it is Drow famele cleric or a drow thief. In normal drow society though, a thief will never be stronger than a high priestess.

A lot of people don't seem to understand religion in FL, because that religion is not the same as the religion in RL. In fantasy worlds, Gods exist and there is a real proof that can be shown. When communers produce magic, they do not produce it by themself. It is the God that casts it and grants his/her priest the ability to direct the spell at whoever they like to. In other words, they smite down mortals via their priests/priestesses. The more high ranking the priest/ess, the stronger the spells will be. In a case of a male drow follower of Lolth, the spells will be non-existant simply because Lolth will not cast EVER for a male. The drow society is defined as a matriarchat simply due that sole reason. If male drow clerics in FL can commune to the spider queen, then that is in conflict with the basics on which the whole RP in FL (and not just FL) is built on.

[Kyzarius]

Hmm.. I have Drow of the Underdark (d&d drow guide) on me..

drow society is matriarchal. the men are little more than pets, slaves, and breeding tools.. BUT.. they still worship lloth and STILL benefit from her powers. The examples they give for Cavestalkers, Dread Fang of Lloth and Arachnomancers are male. and in order to be an arachnomancer, you have to be a cleric first...

sure, the women are the high priests, but that doesnt bar the men from worshipping lloth, or from being priests themselves, so long as the dominance is kept. thats how i see it at least.

foxx, are you just completly ignoring Enethier's post?

[f0xx]

The arachnomancers (like necromancers, but using spiders instead of undeads) are sadly a spellcaster. Not a cummuner. The magic they use is arcane in nature, not divine i.e. they have nothing to do with communing to Lolth.

[Kyzarius]

The arachnomancers (like necromancers' date=' but using spiders instead of undeads) are sadly a spellcaster. Not a cummuner. The magic they use is arcane in nature, not divine i.e. they have nothing to do with communing to Lolth.[/quote']

you still didnt read it, and I verified it with online DnD resources.

the Arachnomancers have to be clerics first, thus communers.

hell even Driders can be male or female, and both genders of the hybrid race are revered by some drow and hated by others.

the point being that thorugh RP any of thes social stigma are overcomable, and it would be narrowminded and a blow to functional and well thought out RP to code into the game an automatic outcast flag to male drows who worship another diety.

You basically are saying "lloth hates you, and if you choose another dieity your outcasted" a catch 22 screw you to any male drow.

[f0xx]

you still didnt read it, and I verified it with online DnD resources.

the Arachnomancers have to be clerics first, thus communers.

The Arachnomancer is a prestige class of the Underdark that focuses on the strength and power of spiders. Because of the worship of Lolth among the Drow, an Arachnomancer can expect good reception within the majority of drow society.

All spellcasters who wish to become Arachnomancers must be part of a scarification ritual that involves burning symbols into his face and rubbing the symbols with ash or other colorings in order to create raised and clear spider-shaped markings of his devotion to mastery of spider magic.

Source - http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Arachnomancer

*shrug*

hell even Driders can be male or female, and both genders of the hybrid race are revered by some drow and hated by others.

True, for thirty years though being a drider was a curse from the Spider Queen, curse which was brought upon those who were considered not worthy, be it for weakness or whatever other reason. So, basicly a male can be turned into a drider if he is blasphemous and caught by high priestess.

the point being that thorugh RP any of thes social stigma are overcomable, and it would be narrowminded and a blow to functional and well thought out RP to code into the game an automatic outcast flag to male drows who worship another diety.

Point No.1 - drows do not worship another diety. Any drow who would worship another diety would mean that he either has a blasphemous RP or is truly using game mechanics for OOC purposes.

Point No.2 - this is not a social stigma. It is a question of whether your God will see you as worthy priest. As it is well know, Lolth is a despot female diety who supports the matriarchat and communes only to females. Worthy females that is. Lolth communing to a male priest is like Irumeri communing to an undead dark knight (I think I gave that example already?).

You basically are saying "lloth hates you, and if you choose another dieity your outcasted" a catch 22 screw you to any male drow.

It is not me who is saying that, this is how IT IS. Males in drow society are like women in the middle ages i.e. they are objects, they are slaves. Only 1% of all males can gain some status of power and prestige (which is of course extremely limited and is nowhere near the power and prestige a female can have) in drow society and those are either warriors and wizards.

If you want to be a male cleric who worships Lolth, please be my guest, but some very HIGH RP standards should be expected from such. Standards which if met of course, should be heavily rewarded.

As Mindflayer said before, drow are so fun, yet so difficult to RP, because to RP correct you need to have quite a lot of knowledge about their society. And no, if you think that knowing their society is a matriarchat and females are bigger than males would be enough, you are wrong.

[Kyzarius]

lastI checked, you do not get outcasted from anything if your a drow male and choose a religeon.

Thus it is NOT how it currently is.

I understand the social stigma, and the RP behind a male drow. I have played several, Lorfaine, Lethennon, and even recently.

My point is not against the RP impact of the drow society, it is the effect adding a permanent outcast flag to any male drow who tries to go outside the box. This I think would be against the nature of FL RP, and in the end restrict what you are able to accomplish in game.

[f0xx]

lastI checked, you do not get outcasted from anything if your a drow male and choose a religeon.

Thus it is NOT how it currently is.

That is how it is at the moment yes. Should it be like that though, is a different question. Why bring Lolth as a religion at all in FL then? It could have been kept as an old "out of fashion" religion.

In a normal drow society following Lolth is the rule. Not the exception, as it is currently in FL.

I understand the social stigma, and the RP behind a male drow. I have played several, Lorfaine, Lethennon, and even recently.

This is like saying "stealing is OK since I've stolen before and didn't go to jail for it". I hope you get my point - just because you have played few successful (PK wise) male drows means next to nothing (RP wise) and correct me if I am wrong, but back then we didn't have Lolth as a religion, did we? You want to see how a well RPed drow should look like? Look at Mindflayer's drow invoker. Even though it was a female wizard (which is again something very unusual for drow society) the character was supremely well RPed.

My point is not against the RP impact of the drow society, it is the effect adding a permanent outcast flag to any male drow who tries to go outside the box. This I think would be against the nature of FL RP, and in the end restrict what you are able to accomplish in game.

As I've said this outcast flag shouldn't have any effects other than being there! And how is it going to restrict anything? You can basicly take your words and place them for an elf who wants to be evil - "hey don't make me outcast for going out of the box".

Drow are not the average race. Along with their inherited evilness comes an inherited religion. Hell, their evilness actually comes FROM their religion.

[Kyzarius]

obviously you never RP'ed with my previous drows. Both had indepth RP that was based on the matriarchial portion of drow society and overcoming it.

heck, I know of a current male drow that has a background that defines him as being guided away from xymerria by Lloth herself to better serve her at a later time of need.

slapping an outcast flag would make an already difficult to overcome social stigma nearly impossible.

[Croyvern]

Ok.

Foxx is right.

Eshaine is right.

And this is right.

If you are a drow male cleric of lloth. there should be some profound RP behind it. If you are a drow male cleric of ANY other god, your are a blasphemy to be reckoned with sooner or later by any Lloth fearing Drow. Does this mean you can not RP a Male Cycle Cleric with a drow? NO, remember YOU are a drow as well, YOU believe yourself to be the absolutely most powerful race alive, and likely believe you are the greatest among your Kin. After all you had the courage somewhere in your youth to turn your back on Lloth, do not be so upset when her loyal children find the time to turn on you.

[Twinblades713]

The way I look at it, this is FL and not any other game or world or system. If imms have said drow can be played as male clerics of Lloth, then they can be.

HOWEVER, personally I believe there is a good way to play them specifically, and a better way to play them. Since, and only since we got the idea of Lloth from elsewhere, it's more realistic to play them as they were created. I would say males would only be able to use arcane magic, and only females would be communing anything. It's not that males aren't able to commune, it's just that Lloth doesn't give a **** about a male. It'd be like Zhokril giving the power of time travel to a fish. wtf is that gonna do. It's just a fish.

[Croyvern]

It's just a fish.

Love it.

I think drow clerics would most likely be with the Lloth added faith. She is not going to want a stupid fish, but may not care if Lytholm listens to his prayers. That is as long as Lytholm, an odd anagram for my lloth, did not allow said drow male to interfere with her loyal children's plans.

And I think if you choose to be a drow male cleric, knowing/having read the drow help files, you should not be suprised if a certain few drow females take it upon themselves to kick your skinny male rear back into your place.

[f0xx]

Since' date=' and only since we got the idea of Lloth from elsewhere, it's more realistic to play them as they were created.[/quote']

Exactly what I am trying to say.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Drow first referred to as black or dark elves in Greyhawk. Went to Dragonlance as just dark elves. To Faerun (Forgotten Realms) as dark elves and then they were given the name drow, which has become widely popular ever since. Drow worship Lloth, Queen of Spiders and Chaos, blah, blah, blah.

I'll be happy with whatever decision the staff ends up making on this...(if any change at all), but I will stick in my last two cents here.

Lloth doesn't give a **** about males. Lloth fearing drow would go after their errant kin (male or female who worship another). Why? Failure to eradicate a rogue (male or female) would cause that drow to fall from the favor of Lloth. Falling from failure means you start losing spells.

This becomes more complex than just "males can't be clerics". Chew it over for a little while.

[f0xx]

Lol Valek, you are digging a bit too deep now...

[mya]

What If ...

It's a Male cleric, but wears a one of those Maddie Pink Dresses ?

[-red-]

What If ...

It's a Male cleric, but wears a one of those Maddie Pink Dresses ?

Now THAT is a fantastic RP angle:

Male drow pretties himself up in attempts to fool females of his race and gain Lloth's favor, and all the power that comes along with it. Constant fear of exposure, spy-like cunning required...

Somebody play that, please.

[f0xx]

See, this just opens more RP angles.

I would be happy to see such an RP.

[Raargant]

Male drow clerics are possible even in FR; a cleric named Rai-guy was a high priest of Lloth, no less, and figured prominently as a villain in two Salvatore books.

They should in general be the exception rather than the norm, of course, and as others have pointed out, even in FL, should ideally have a backstory that explains precisely why Lloth chose to favor that particular male with her power.

Also, keep in mind that while Lloth believes in and promotes supremacy of females over males, that doesn't mean she "doesn't give a damn" at all about males; on the contrary, in numerous books, it has been stated that this male or that male gained or lost the favor of Lloth by performing particular actions or feats. It just means that in general, males will be licking females boots in a given drow society, with all else being equal.

One last note: Lloth is a matriarchal goddess, but a matriarchal goddess of CHAOS. There are no 100% absolute rules for her.

PS: If you google 'Lloth' and 'males', we're actually on the front page of results...LOL! Number one hit for "male drow cleric".

[Demiterracotta]

Since we're following the method of D&D drow, and since Salvatore's work figures into that heavily. I vote that all drow above the surface lose every racial, and gets a -10% to skills while not in a cave. Then maybe they would be authentic enough for everyone, since they lose their innate skills above ground after a time (referring to Salvatore here, which is the only source of Drow info I have). That is the solution that should be hard-coded in immediately.

They're a mythical race in a mythical world. Nuff said.

[-Totenkopf-]

If lloth is a god of chaos as tsar said how does a lloth follower join tribunal. Or how does any non chaotic character follow lloth?

[f0xx]

You guys are delving it in too deep. All those things you are suggesting, mostly to be a cock (Demiterracotta) will heavily affect PK. This suggestion just makes drows a bit more realistic religion wise.

We pee and poop in RL, do we do it in FL? We spend 1/4 of our lives sleeping in RL, do we do it in FL? Get some common sense and stop being pricks.

I am done with this thread.

[Grishnak]

If lloth is a god of chaos as tsar said how does a lloth follower join tribunal. Or how does any non chaotic character follow lloth?

The drow certainly seem to be a very ordered, rule-oriented (even their breaking the rules had its own set of rules) society for a "chaotic ethos only" race. I think being lawful is a bit different from being a follower of "order." In FL we sadly have to lump those together, but look at Oppressant for a great example.