One more chance at civility

[Calron]

Ok, I wrote this and then tried to post as the last thread was locked. I would have to agree with many of Savnt's points. I know I'm just beating a dead horse here, but since I haven't thrown my say into any of these threads, I figure I'll do it now.

Vampire Tribunals are overpowered. I hate generalizing, but this is really the blunt truth, I'll explain why. I don't even think that Vampires should be allowed in Tribunal or Cabals really at all, but I'm not so disillusioned as to think I'm going to change that. It is the same as the rule that Avatars cannot go past Trusted and Crusaders can't be Warmasters, its just too much. An IMM said very recently when we were discussing qclass/qrace ability that Vampire, Avatar, and Crusader were all about the same in ability. Therefore, it follows that at the very least shouldn't have Elder. Vampires can already rock most classes with ease, they don't need more cabal skills to help them. And they especially should not be able to hold an Elder spot.

I love Marty and his RP, but I just think its too much with cabal skills. I killed Marty (Please, try and keep this civil, I'm just making an example, not boosting my ego) before he became a Tribunal, and I haven't fought him since with the same char, but from what I've seen people just have no chance with the skills from his cabal. I really do complement the player of Martineius on coming up with such a grand idea, I think it was incredibly inspiring and something new to think about. But, as always, new ideas often bring to light new problems.

IMMs past and present try to emphasize that they -do- listen to the playerbase, and make changes/modifications where appropriate. This is probably one of the most clear responses from the playerbase that I have ever seen here. People may disagree in specific ways about why they're overpowered, but there is a massively overwhelming majority coming from playerbase that -something- (It doesn't even matter what) is wrong with a Vampire Tribunal and needs to be fixed. Almost everyone except for one or two agree that something needs to be changed. It is not something new that fantastic PK characters cause toning or change, it has happened many times in the past, and it is bound to happen again.

If you find my points valid, and want to hear about how I think we should go about fixing this I will be glad to post them. And now my last point. I know for a fact theres a lot of you out there that want this changed a hell of a lot more than I do. I'm only even posting because I know that this is bothering you a lot, and I know that the way most of you go about it, you aren't going to inspire change (even if you are right). The Immortals -will not- listen to you if you are rude, unconstructive, and make petty jibes at other players or posters; that is only a sign of immaturity. I'm offering a friendly warning to a lot of you, if those of you that have constantly degraded these threads continue to do so, nothing is going to get changed, and I know that isn't what you want. Please keep this in mind as you reply.

Cheers,

Calron

P.S. Wow, that might be a record long post for me

[Malchaeius]

I swear to God if anyone turns this thread into a flamefest, I will forumban AND Game ban you.

[Goomf]

I swear to God if anyone turns this thread into a flamefest' date=' I will forumban AND Game ban you.[/quote']

See, now THAT should be your quote.

[Teralis]

That is a killer quote, hehe.

Anyway, I think there are more then one or two people who think there is nothing that needs changed. He is a very good character rp and pk wise.

I have alot of respect for him getting the crap he has gotten and still driving on with everything. Also to say that vampires shouldnt be allowed to be in any cabals is pretty messed up, we are all given the right by the imms to be in any cabal we want to join. However I dont agree we should have to be rank 50 to join a cabal, since some very good rpers and good chars in general still have yet to have thier first pinned char. Now we all know he is beatable, crap he even gives tips to use skills spells that you arent using to kill him that you should be (at least he did with me). Crap he has been there for long enough now I thought assumed all the complaints would have just gone away but I guess I was wrong. And yes he has smacked the hell out of me and back and I know he is tough. I dont know who plays him but he is skilled and I am sure a vamp in unskilled hands in the same situation wouldnt be quite so tough. So whats next to say that the player cannot play qraces, qclasses, cabals etc.. etc... No. it is his right as is all of yours to play what he wishes.

[delfytheelfy]

Noone is denouncing his/her skill as a player. The fact is, yes hes a great guy/girl in and out of game. I think it comes down to like the time when a druid watcher was tearing stuff up and in turn knew they were, knew there was little chance to die, and went to the IMM's expressing their upmost conern they knew theyw ere overpowered. Combinations of new things will always need new twinking, and personally I think this is one of thosse times. But hey, it's not up to me, it's up to the IMM's

[myrek]

if it is over-powered, make one and exploit it until you drive the IMMs to change it.

[Teralis]

But hey' date=' it's not up to me, it's up to the IMM's[/quote']

Exactly, and thats why we are players and they are staff, I doubt they get kicks of making sure there is 1 uber super char and watching them destroy the pbase.

[The Lemming]

Ok I have fought Marty on several occasions and I have never beaten him. Not once. He doesnt alwasy get me either. I know someone will say that they want a chance at beating him not just getting away, and I can testify that it is there. However, that is what keeps me coming back, I love the challenge. As far as him being overpowered goes, I have seen nothing but him making a bad situation worse for me. And I was in that bad situation because I put myself there, I hate to be so blunt but I have to think of the basics. If I loose there is a reason why I lost and it is my fault. Sometimes I flee too early; sometimes I stay one round too long. It boils down to every time I fight him I am loosing already by the time I am completely screwed. That is not because of him being overpowered, it is his ability to do his job and my lack of knowledge for fighting against him.

My second point is he became a vamp because he was good. He became a tribunal because he was good. Those places are awarded because of his accomplishments and as far as I am concerned he earned what he has. In PK and RP his is one of the best, if not top dog. That is why I go after him. That is why I RP with him. I didn’t start playing here to have everything handed to me on a silver platter.

Major Props to Marty and don’t go away before I get to beat you.

[Grosek_]

if it is over-powered' date=' make one and exploit it until you drive the IMMs to change it.[/quote']

Yeah, thats really the best way to prove that changes need to be made. Going against them and failing proves you're just like the rest of the Trib fodder, and if you're the only one to have any success, well, you just proved that things are fine the way they are.

[Fiere]

Word to Lemming, I feel exactly the same way. I don't have to beat the whole dang playerbase to have fun.

[Grumpy]

if it is over-powered' date=' make one and exploit it until you drive the IMMs to change it.[/quote']

Normally your suggestion would be valid, but do you forsee the IMMs allowing another vampire to join the tribunal, given the amount of complaints with even one in the cabal?

I think the slight toning down of vampires is called for. They should be less survivable and have more pronounced weaknesses against the sun than they already do now. I would like to make more specific suggestions, but I don't want to be forum banned so I suppose I will stop here.

[Tom]

I don't think making suggestions that you feel would genuinely better the situation would get you banned. Perhaps an edit to make your post a little less combative is in order?

[Grumpy]

Actually Myrek's post made me remember the old Slith thief crisis we had. There were like half a dozen slith thieves at pin with their lvl 60 traps. Needless to say the IMMs had to fix the situation pretty quickly. So I do in fact hope that myrek's suggestion is possible and we can have a dozen vampires at pin.

As for the forum ban, what I meant was that I didn't want to specifically name or describe the qrace skills/spells which I feel should be tweaked slightly. As it is against forum rules, thus the possible forum ban.

[Tom]

My apologies, from the context it seemed you didn't want to disagree with Imms because they'd forumban you. If it's something like what you describe above, I'd just prayerforum it.

[Deykari]

I think the problem we had with the previous discussion is that the line of thought was towards Tribunal being overpowered. Putting things into perspective, I am of the opinion, like I think most people think now, that the Cabal itself is fine, however it is the combination of the Tribunal Cabal with certain classes that may well be the issue. I have posted a contradicting argument to the one I make now however, for reasons you'll see at the end of the post.

Assuming the problem is with the Cabal/Class combos, bear in mind that the Tribunal is still a relatively new cabal when you place it in comparison to others. Though most classes will fit right into the role of a Tribunal and be 'balanced' in terms of the extra abilities they get, versus the big responsibilities they have to take on, I think the more high-powered classes would need a closer look.

If we take the vampire example that's being used, well, we have a high-powered class that played in the right hands, is an absolute beast. Sure, you can say that about any race/class combo, but everyone knows vampires are among some of the strongest. In other Cabals that allow vampires, their cabal skills will be a boon, but granted, will not make them an indomitable beast (feel free to correct me without mentioning specific skills or anything here, I am not savvy with all of the higher-ranked Cabal skills). Now it is agreed with most people that Tribunal need their stronger powers to deal with what they have to deal with; that is, gangs from non-wanteds/wanteds/outlaws, and so on and so forth. To most classes, this extra push will give what is needed to aid them in their heightened responsibilities. Giving them to a class that when played well, can already take down most players, boosts them. Granted they will have to deal with the same things, gangs being a main issue, but a high-powered class combined with their auto-attacking guard (which may well be weaker than the Justice hound, but granted, is still a huge boon, especially when placed with a competent vampire) and a couple of other skills that I can’t mention (such as the notable ‘e’ skill), but again, when previously complaining about that particular skill to be toned, thinking about it, it’s not the skill that was the problem for me – it was the fact that a very powerful class, combined with their guard, could then utilize that.

Again this is no dig at any Tribunal members, especially Martineius, considering that the bulk of my post was towards Tribunal Vampires.

We do, however, have the flipside of things. Like I said before, Tribunal is a relatively new Cabal, and Tribunal Vampires are certainly a powerful combination. Or are they? This is something that the more vet/elite players could comment on I’m sure; Martineius has said he HAS fallen in combat, and not just in gangs; I do believe he has said he has been defeated a few times in one-versus-one combat. Just like when blademasters were released, most of us had problems with them, because there were a new class. People didn’t know how to fight them. Now I’m not saying people don’t know how to fight vampires, but perhaps characters who naturally oppose the Tribunal Cabal need to find a way to work around what they can do. I don’t mean to insult the intelligence of anybody who knows this by pointing it out as if it’s something new, but I can think of a couple of big downsides that Martineius, as a vampire, has by being both a Vampire and a Tribunal. It would take surgical precision and skill to bring about such a plan to take him down solo, however, it stands to reason that you need to have such a high degree of skill to take down a highly skilled player. And my final point on the flipside of the argument, look at numbers. The problem may not just lie within one player. Not very long ago at all, perhaps a few weeks, there were probably a couple of watchers, maybe a couple of syndis, and the odd few Outlaws around (unless there are an awful lot of people hiding their affiliation)? Look at it this way – there is a highly organised system of Law in place which at the minute has MANY active members. And to oppose it, there were maybe a couple of Watchers at most working together. The Syndis I knew of, played different time zones so they were usually alone. And a lot of the Outlaws that are about, were either cabal-hopefuls or standalone fighters. There we have a highly organized system of Law, against ‘pockets’ of resistance. Now something I have seem even more recently, are numbers picking up in both Syndicate/Watcher, as well as a lot more Outlaws – not just standalone Outlaws, but Outlaws in other Cabals. If one or two Outlaws are on with say, three Tribunal, they’re going to get hunted by the Tribunal as a given. Say you’re an Outlaw, being chased by, for sake of the example everyone has been using again, Marty, and another of the Tribunal. Although the other Tribunal may only do nothing, it still gives the impression that the wanted/outlaws are under the most pressure. Now we are beginning to see many more people oppose the Tribunal. Pressure is beginning to build a little on their side. People might still say Marty is still tricky to beat 1v1, but if Marty is online alone with three Outlawed Watchers, even if they don’t directly help each other, Marty is still going to be under a lot more pressure.

I’ve posted two contradicting arguments here, because I feel the best debates encompass the opposing view. After all, it’s not a debate if the two opposing ‘forces’ if you will don’t try and take onboard each others arguments. My thoughts? I would tend to agree with the first argument, HOWEVER, I don’t really think at this time, any action is warranted. Things seem to be picking up for the Tribunal opposition, why don’t we ride the storm, and see what happens? I truly believe that if the Immortals (who I suspect have a lot more experience in the MUD than what most of us do) suspect a REAL problem with balance, they will do something.

Anyway, these are merely just a few roused thoughts that I’d like to share, feel free to disagree, contradict or point out any flawed logic here. After all, I’m not yet an “FL-expert”.

Apologies for the length of my post,

Dey

[Ex-D&Der]

The more I read of this discussion, the more I think it's not the cabal or the class that's overpowered, but the player. Maybe we should tone down the player for being overpowered. He can only play when on sedatives or something.

[Chayesh]

ROFL....

That may be the best suggestion yet.

[Behrens]

This is a very civil thread, so I am going to address the issue now, and hope it will lay all sorts of annoyances to rest.

First, vampires are FAR less powerful now than they were in their heyday in 1.0 and even 2.0. There is a whole sub-cabal that has cruelly powerful spells against them, and this Tribunal Vamp has made himself at war with them 24/7. Crusaders exist now, and despite what anyone thinks, fighting a 'Sader as a vampire is incredibly hard to do, and if the 'Sader knows what he's doing he can seem truly impossible for a vampire to even touch. Blademasters exist now, and trust me when I say that a Stalker BM who catches a vamp in a certain "way" will kill him nearly effortlessly. (I am not kidding about that, I mean no effort).

Even without these increased enemies, vampires have had their core abilities reduced. Landing certain skills has been reduced in ability, and certain ways of avoiding combat have become harder to use.

Honestly, if you wanted to play an overpowered vampire, you would have done best to play them as Conclave of 1.0. Oh, wait, Viri did, and didn't nerf them despite the fact he destroyed the p-base and died ONCE. Martin has died many more times than that, and has often been stopped at least from finishing the PK by people in inferior equipment.

We've certainly got a quality player, but he isn't nearly as powerful as vamps have been, and to be perfectly honest, I think he's picked one of the poorer cabal/class combos for vamp. A certain e-ability is nice, but otherwise he would have done far better to be Syndicate or Nexus.

So go roll up a 'Sader, Stalker, or blademaster and show the silly vamp who is boss.

[EyeSeeU]

All I am going to say is Before Marty became a Tribunal I defeated him and it took the most cunning and underhanded of tactics to do it. I was not proud of my victory after it happened even though I was supposed to do it. In the basic sense a vampire really isn't supposed to try and help civilization let alone protect its citizens. To a vampire the Living is food and a means to gain more power. Order is not usually in a vampires vocab. Now im not trying to say that you cannot rp what Marty has but rather that its unbecoming of a vampire. Its basically like having an Undead thief in Tribunal saying I protect the law. Its too much of a clash of rp and interests.

After he became one I never bested him again, I came close a few times but close does not cut it. I think he holds our battles to a 5-1 victory. In any case it was not fun.

After reading that Behrens I think that you are right. In fact if he was an elder of syndi or Nexus people would be complaining a lot more. However I am not complaining about the power of the vampire nor are a lot of people, its the rp in the vampire that I am questioning here wether they should be a tribunal or not.

[Teralis]

You know I even think Chayesh gimped a spell or two from him(because of his war on the undead), because there are a few things that I have yet to see him even do. (So it could be much worse)

[Guest emp_newb]

THANK YOU BEHRENS! I have been saying, halfer/dwarf TRAINED(not half ***, the real thing) can slaughter a vamp. being careful about weapon choices and skills.

*halfling population now triples.*

[Chayesh]

*Barry White music is heard drifting from the Shire followed soon by the theme song from "Shaft"*

[Lexi]

Re: EyeSeeU

You have no right to judge another person's RP whatsoever, since only the player behind a character will know all the reasons, the motivations, all the various quirks and odd behaviours, and all the other elements that bring a character to life. The only time a characters roleplay fails is when the player goes OOC; the rest of it, breaches against class/race/align/ethos/cabal only add extra dimensions to the roleplaying experienced, if properly thought out and well executed.

In my opinion, the most interesting characters are the one that have a RP that makes them stand out of the crowd, for example Goomf, Irpel, Sylph (I think that was his name, a knight faerie rogue), and now Martineius. Just because something is different doesn't mean it is bad.

[Mindflayer]

*Barry White music is heard drifting from the Shire followed soon by the theme song from "Shaft"*

That was the best part of this whole thread! Love it!

[Yuri]

I swear to God if anyone turns this thread into a flamefest' date=' I will forumban AND Game ban you.[/quote']

Hehe.

So from an RP perspective, if you're a God, do you swear to yourself?

Sorry. I had to make the bad joke.