Wimpy

[Pali]

Another idea - how about making it so a wimpy flee only goes through at the points that a manually entered flee could go through (basically, between combat rounds rather than mid-round)? My main gripe is really it kicking in at points where a manually entered command can't. Rather than making it so that the instant enough damage has been done you flee, make it once the round of attacks that knocks you below that amount of hp is done you flee.

[Reccum]

re: Pali

that would work, and prevent all abuse of the skill.

re: Mya

you don't need a log, I can imagine dozens of situations where wimpy is just a pain in the arse.

[f0xx]

Another idea - how about making it so a wimpy flee only goes through at the points that a manually entered flee could go through (basically' date=' between combat rounds rather than mid-round)?[/quote']

That is exactly what I was thinking about too. Also, it should not override the commands that you have already spammed.

@mya

==========================================================

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D)

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D)

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D)

Without cover someone is peleted with flaming debris!

Someone yells 'Help! I've just walked into Vakuul's firestorm!'

Your Firestorm decimates someone!

Someone has fled!

Someone has fled!

Someone limps east.

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

Cast the spell on whom?

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

Cast the spell on whom?

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

Without cover someone is peleted with flaming debris!

Someone yells 'Help! I've just walked into Vakuul's firestorm!'

Your Firestorm mauls someone.

Someone has retreated!

Someone has retreated!

Someone limps east.

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

Cast the spell on whom?

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

Cast the spell on whom?

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

c he

Cast the spell on whom?

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

Cast the spell on whom?

Without cover someone is peleted with flaming debris!

Someone yells 'Help! I've just walked into Vakuul's firestorm!'

Your Firestorm decimates someone!

Someone has retreated!

Someone limps east.

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

Cast the spell on whom?

(237/869hp 1471/1507m 158/481mv) [Exits: --- ] (36286Ntl) (59526gold) (23time) (D) c he

Cast the spell on whom?

==========================================================

Me spamming hellstream and the guy is fleeing so fast I can't hit him?

I also have countless of other examples too, of people fleeing after a murder command from a single blow.

[Kyzarius]

in that case fox, why didnt you just drop firestorm and hellstream as an opener.

[Pali]

One of firestorm's best qualities is it's ability to let an invoker just own a room and autoengage - wimpy in this example is removing that quality from the spell. I think Foxx and I would care much less about wimpy if it didn't happen so damned fast - if, when it occurred, it was indistinguishable to observers from someone having manually entered flee.

[Grishnak]

Umm...

Firestorm doesn't auto-enter you in a round of combat and you can't hit them with hellstream until the first round of engagement (when you are auto-targeting). You can actually flee (by entering the command) between the first hit from a firestorm and the first round of combat.

[Pali]

I'm well aware firestorm doesn't automatically begin a round of combat - but yes, you can hellstream them before that round of combat too.

[Grishnak]

You can hellstream if you directly target the person, not otherwise.

[Pali]

Are you certain? Because I recall differently - unfortunately I no longer have any of my invoker logs.

EDIT: However, from a quick look at one of the invoker logs in the PK section...

Without cover Marusya is peleted with flaming debris!

Marusya yells 'Help! I've just walked into Elarus's firestorm!'

Your Firestorm wounds Marusya.

Marusya climbs in.

Marusya has a few scratches.

Sure looks like they're in combat - should be autotargeted.

[Dale]

I've walked out of firestorm before combat started.

And most of you are really ridiculous.

Let's make the game easier for us to pk people who don't know when to flee.

I don't even follow up on pks it someone doesn't know what they are doing.

In fact, I get really pissed when it happens. Like last night one of my friends was playing, he is really new, in fact he didn't even know the guy was opposite allign he tried to follow him to hunt and the guy killed and full looted him. I mean wtf, do you guys like the 5-6 pbase?

Now, I'm not calling anyone out and this isn't a rant. But it's not like any of you could say **** cause there ain't nothin but a bunch of crying going on anyway.

[Zavero]

I cannot believe you guys are going this far about wimpy.

Well said Dale.

[Pali]

I've walked out of firestorm before combat started.

I'm willing to bet that you have fled out of firestorm before the first round of combat - I very much doubt that you walked out. I'm 99% certain that walking into a firestorm pulls you into combat, and must be fled from. The game doesn't treat it as the room doing you damage, it treats it as the player doing you damage.

As for wimpy... *shrugs* Zhok already said it's unlikely to be changed, so I'm really just arguing for the sake of arguing. I enjoy a good discussion. To be honest, I don't think that in PK wimpy really helps newbs all that much... it just causes them to bounce around a bit longer uncontrollably as they are attacked again and again. In my experience, the people who benefit from it most are experienced players playing combos that are benefited by fleeing a lot and keeping the battle moving around.

[Reccum]

That's it Pali. I dunno why people are so against tweaking something that experienced players can use to their advtange when it is clearly not how the skill was meant to be used.

[Grishnak]

That's it Pali. I dunno why people are so against tweaking something that experienced players can use to their advtange when it is clearly not how the skill was meant to be used.

Clearly? So you were in the room when the wimpy command was coded and you now know the mindset of the guy who was coding it, right? Because as far as I can tell the only thing that's clear is the fact that a command was created that forces your character to flee when below a certain HP and taking damage.

That's not coming from someone who "takes advantage" of wimpy. I usually keep my wimpy off unless I'm fighting certain mobs, and in fact I get pissed when I flee from PK combat because I forgot to shut off my wimpy. It costs a player more kills than it gets them. It might help people survive, but it's certainly not going to give you an edge as far as KILLING someone goes, now is it?

[Reccum]

Clearly? So you were in the room when the wimpy command was coded and you now know the mindset of the guy who was coding it' date=' right? Because as far as I can tell the only thing that's [i']clear is the fact that a command was created that forces your character to flee when below a certain HP and taking damage.

That's not coming from someone who "takes advantage" of wimpy. I usually keep my wimpy off unless I'm fighting certain mobs, and in fact I get pissed when I flee from PK combat because I forgot to shut off my wimpy. It costs a player more kills than it gets them. It might help people survive, but it's certainly not going to give you an edge as far as KILLING someone goes, now is it?

Let me rephrase. I do not think wimpy was intended to be used by pro's as a means of avoiding damage in certain situations. What you defined as clear is what I think the intention was.

I can see how it would help in killing people as a counter class for example as previously mentioned. Also, picture an Invoker using it. He could set wimpy to max hp so he flees right away no matter what, then open combat with a spell. Usually the invoker takes a round of combat damage in exchange for a spell, but with wimpy at max he will just take a single retaliation. If this persists for a while, the Invoker will clearly win, dealing an afflictive spell in exchange for one melee strike is a definite win for the mage. With the reduced lag flees and a charged staff, it would be very hard to engage the invoker at all. Blindness would be the only way of stopping this tactic.

As for wimpy doing more harm than good, you cannot assume everyone forgets to turn it off. Someone abusing wimpy will have macroes for setting it to various levels and stay alert on it.

[mmajunkie]

You can't set wimpy to 100%

Why/how did this turn into a discussion about how to tweak wimpy to make it easier to kill people? The ability is suited more to be a defensive, learning ability. Not a tactical strategy...it's listed as a suggestion in "help newbie" To argue about it like it's OP or something....slightly comical, more disappointing.

[mya]

That cannot happen.

Max wimpy is Half Max HP.

The moment the invocker wimps out, he has to cast firestorm up again. So he can only open.

If he gets hit, he has to flee again, guess what room he must move to and open combat with a spell.

All a warrior has to do, is do nothing. Mages engages with spell, and wimps out. Warrior follows and charges or murders.

And you can manual flee if you spammed commands, you just have to drop connection and log in again...

And F0xx, would it not be better to spam fireball over Hellstream since you are blind and cannot hit him.

On the log, i only see Wimpy doing what is supposed to do.

Make a character that is not lagged flee on damage.

He enters room, gets damage, wimpy takes him out as intended.

[Reccum]

seems I spoke to soon. You cannot set wimpy above 50% hp. Meh, I guess it isn't that big a deal afterall...

[Dale]

I would strongly agree that wimpy shouldn't be an option at 50, and make it more like 15% to 30% hp. You could have a wimpy perk for 50%

[Dale]

I would strongly agree

With myself.

[Reccum]

lol @ wimpy perk, hahahha

[f0xx]

A lot of people don't seem to get it.

Firestorm does not get you into a round but it gets you into combat. It is like your opponent dirting you and you dirting back before the round has passed. You don't have to target him.

Now, to butcher some of your comments:

in that case fox' date=' why didnt you just drop firestorm and hellstream as an opener.[/quote']

Because, as you can see I am blind. There is no way to cast it on him unless I see him. Besides I wanted to cut out the way so he cannot retrieve his standard.

Umm...

Firestorm doesn't auto-enter you in a round of combat and you can't hit them with hellstream until the first round of engagement (when you are auto-targeting). You can actually flee (by entering the command) between the first hit from a firestorm and the first round of combat.

Now that is one of the most funny and contradicting statements. How come you can flee without beeing in combat? I hope you understand that one excludes the other, and when you are in combat autotargetting works.

You can hellstream if you directly target the person' date=' not otherwise.[/quote']

Yes you can, when you are in combat. When you are not in combat you need a target, when you are in combat you don't.

I've walked out of firestorm before combat started.

As someone said, you CAN NOT walk out of firestorm. You flee from it.

And F0xx' date=' would it not be better to spam fireball over Hellstream since you are blind and cannot hit him.[/quote']

No, because fireball lags, and spamming a spell without a target does not.

In this case, I sit in a room with firestorm up and spamming hellstream. The guy enters the room and thus in combat and hellstream autotargets when you are in combat. Why is this so important? Because wimpy is faster than the player. Has any of you tried engaging a mob that is after him with murder? You can not do it, despite the fact that you are sitting in one room and spamming murder (it is the mob that is engaging you). The system is simply faster than you. It is the same with wimpy. No matter how much I sit and spam hellstream (or whatever other command), even if not blind and directly targetting him, he walks in, takes damage, wimpy takes him out of combat so fast I can't even cast my spell, even though I sit and spam.

Now for some of the posts that are not giving/making false assumptions for game mechanics and/or giving me useless advices on how to PK and are actually on topic:

Let's make the game easier for us to pk people who don't know when to flee.

Why/how did this turn into a discussion about how to tweak wimpy to make it easier to kill people?

This is not about making it easier to kill people. This is about tweaking in game mechanism so it does not save your life AUTOMATICALLY (at least against another PC). This is like having an inbuilt trigger who can pick up your weapon and wield it when disarmed. Or a trigger who is recalling you if you go bellow certain HP (I am sure you would like both of those dear Mya, won't you?). And all this OVERRIDING YOUR SPAMMED COMMANDS. So you can forget about timing too. I can easily set a trigger that will flee when I take damage and set it at 100% HP. What this trigger won't do though, is that it won't override my spammed commands.

Now I will be honest on one thing, I am not 100% sure it does override spammed commands, but I am fairly certain it does (just like it was overriding lag before it was changed).

I even believe that the person I was fighting in that log had spammed "west", but due to wimpy making him flee east, he walked into my room 2 more times.

i.e.

What the enters as commands:

west 

west

west

What the game sees as commands:

"east

(taking damage from firestorm)

flee

some movement lag"

repeat quoted 2 times

I actually think wimpy overrides movement lag too. If it didn't I would have had time to hit him with a hellstream.

So, what the game should see is:

west

(taking damage from firestorm)

movement lag

(taking damage from hellstream)

You are already in combat message x2 (for the two spammed direction commands)

FLEE <---- be it manually entered or wimpy

Please don't get too excited about this case with firestorm and hellstream, it is only and example I use to illustire that the concept wimpy is coded on, is flawed.

[Dale]

It has most likely been patched, but I have walked right out of the room after firestorm, dirt kick, and fired weapons.

And I'm sure I have logs to back it up.

I don't care what you think you know about this game or how good you might be.

What I do care about is having other people to play with, as I am sure you do aswell. We don't gain new players and all the old ones keep leaving then no one will be here.

I'll say it, this is the BEST mud on the internet it's really a shame if you log on and type who. That's all I'm saying. Perhaps I'm just arguing to argue but I disagree with you foxx.

[f0xx]

It has most likely been patched, but I have walked right out of the room after firestorm, dirt kick, and fired weapons.

And I'm sure I have logs to back it up.

That is simply not true.

[edit] It might actually be true since fired weapons does not enter combat if the victim is not in the same room. It is definitely not true about firestorm and dirt kick though.

I don't care what you think you know about this game or how good you might be.

What I do care about is having other people to play with, as I am sure you do aswell. We don't gain new players and all the old ones keep leaving then no one will be here.

I'll say it, this is the BEST mud on the internet it's really a shame if you log on and type who. That's all I'm saying. Perhaps I'm just arguing to argue but I disagree with you foxx.

WTF are you talking about? You think I don't care about the mud? I care TONS! And that is why I want to perfect every imperfection it has. It is the same with my characters and that is why I so often delete characters after taking a single P-death. Why are you even bringing the subject of how big our PB is? What does this thread have to do with it?

What this thread is about is WIMPY AND WIMPY ONLY!

First we decide how we want wimpy to work, then we see if it actually works the way we want it. If yes, we don't change it. If no, we change it.

That is what this thread is about. It is a discussion about a feature in our mud. Now please, lets be mature and keep off-topic general stuff out of this thread? Please?

[Kyzarius]

Dale is addressing, aggresivly, a very good point Foxx.

Wimpy is a benefit for new players, it allows them more opportunities to survive or to survive longer.

Wimpy can be utilized by veteran players to enhance their survivability.

What Dale is pointing out in regards to Wimpy, is that you cannot hurt the new players to spite the veterans. So, invokers can be avoided if wimpy is up when using firestorm. Seems like a small issue, minimal impact, but the benefits to newer players outweighs this negative impact.