Defkkoman

[f0xx]

change does not just happen.

There is a process.

Player abuse brings change about,

then change causes player unhappiness.

Therefor, if players would not abuse the system...

While I generally agree with that, lets look into this specific case. We are back to his two cabal items and how much of an abuse it is for those two cabal items to not be counted towards rares.

I personally hate moderate tier thieves because of the obvious abuse with not being able to get back your backpacks even if you kill the thief. Now this is an abuse that should be worked on.

Later though, I found out that moderate tier thieves can only pry away two items from you for a very long time. And those two pried items also count towards the items you can take from the corpse of your dead enemy. So this by itself is quite a gimp (not like they don't deserve it, but still, there is one key skill that is made almost useless).

And now this. Seems a bit too much for me.

Don't get me wrong, I will never play a moderate tier myself, I can promise you that, but why do we even have it there in first place if we make it so unplayable?

And what exactly is the whole problem about cabal items being non-rare? Isn't this limit only there to prevent moderate tiers from hoarding too many rares without anyone being able to loot them from their corpses? This problem does not exist with cabal items anyway.

[Reccum]

You can pry/steal up to 2 items, and if you kill them you can loot another two. Pry/steal works on non rares, looting does not. So a winning thief gets up to 4 things, and whatever they can pilfer

edit: I would also like to point out what I think is a common misconception about Moderate tier. In my view it is not meant to be the pk GIMPED tier. It should be just as competitive. The plus side is you cannot be looted harshly, the downside is you cannot loot harshly and cannot go beyond T in a cabal. That is fair. The only reason I see having a rare limit is for purposes of circulation (which is kinda BS anyway since L-I already screws distribution anyay). Point being, if I use Cabal eq and rot-death hard to get non rares which have great stats, I am not messing with rare circulation, but I am making myself competitive. To me that is the point of moderate. No matter how much I "abuse" as many of you seem to think it is I cannot ever eliminate the downsides to being moderate.

[Croyvern]

I am just saying Foxx, having played a few moderates, that I saw the potential for abuse and resisted. Not everyone is as willing to be gimped as myself. Certain cabal items adjust stats and skills as well if not better than certain rare equipment. In the past (I believe) we made cabal items not rare to keep cabaled players from losing the hard won rares from their inventory due to rare limits, I will be interested myself to watch and see how this ends up. Likely we will take a step backward as cabal members opt to not wear/carry cabal equipment due to the over all limits, and desire to hold on to uber rares. I do not pretend to know the right way to balance it out, instead, I trust the powers that be to do that for me.

With all due respect Foxx, I would like to see "inventory" items (i.e. backpacks, sheathes, bags, sacks, cloaks, ect.) be altered as they relate to the moderate tier. It in no way would ruin the game for new players to have their bag stolen. I understood the moderate tier to be the balance for the jerks who think they need to sacrifice all that a player is wearing causing new players to constantly need to gather yet another mithril suit. So I have to agree 100% with the moderates stealing backpacks needs adjustment comment.

[Reccum]

I actually think that is the only think bordering on unfair as a moderate thief, stealing other peoples backpacks. I mentioned that there are a few ways around this since 2 is the theft limit. I think having a stolen flag would be a great solution, then if the moderate thief dies, anything with a stolen flag could be looted in addition to the 2 rares. It might be tricky to code since I wouldn't person A to be able to loot what I stole from person B. Also, with backpacks I could always just move the contents into another backpack and sacrifice it...Tricky situation, but stealing backpacks aside I still think the cabal armor thing is a nerf, especially since only two MAYBE three of the cabal items are as good as an uber rare. Heck one that I payd 500cp for is apparently worse than one that comes in a whole set for 50cp...Go figure that one out :confused:

[mmajunkie]

is there a seperate outfit for mages? doesn't seem like a big help to invokers to get 30/30 hit dam

[Mali]

Reccum, you can dish it but not take it.

[Reccum]

Reccum' date=' you can dish it but not take it.[/quote']

Who have I nerfed lately?

Or is it something else I am dishing but not taking? Can you be any clearer? If it is a disguised flame at me, I don't get it. If it is a constructive criticism I don't get it.

EDIT: I seriously do not get what all your problems are. Moderate tier was not my idea, but it turns out it suits my looting style. I don't want to full loot you, and I don't want to be full looted. Why is that a bad thing? Just because I am a good player it doesn't mean I cannot play moderately. This does NOT mean I won't try to KILL you EVERY chance I get. It is the looting that will be moderate. That is my understanding of the system.

[jibber]

Reccum,

You played that thief very well. VERY VERY WELL. I enjoyed whatever interactions we had (some were RP, most of them were PK) and I hope you continue with the thief. I'm not trying to flame you, (not sure about anyone else) and I'm trying to be very cordial here. You know, I know, and pretty much everyone else knows something needs to change for moderate thieves. There was definitely and overlook when IMMs added the moderate tier.

You did good with what you had. You used everything you could at your disposal like a thief should. You PK'd senseless and were annoying as hell. You made sure you stole those two things from everyone you ran into (usually the best things if you managed to blackjack me) and overall did VERY well as a thief.

I just think you'd have done better as a ruthless tier. Did you try the 50 cp outfit and see how that worked out? I mean the score you posted was pretty decent for moderate tier -- was it after the 5 cabal item drop or before? You had awesome saves for your hit/dam for only having a few select rares, and your HR/DR wasn't something to be upset at. Your -ac was pretty good too.

I'm very positive you can get back up and dust yourself off, and find some awesome (BETTER) non-rares to help you along. Just gotta look.

[Croyvern]

Reccum, I know I had NO interaction with this character at all. And I certainly was not saying anything bad about you, I just know I have aquired more backpacks with my moderate characters than I ever did with my ruthless ones. The "safety" of not losing my eq may have been the only reason for this as it made me braver from the start (less to lose). So my comments about stealing inventory items are just an observation of a completely abusable loop. I hope you bring back this character and continue to score points for team blue.

[Reccum]

You played that thief very well. VERY VERY WELL. I enjoyed whatever interactions we had (some were RP' date=' most of them were PK) and I hope you continue with the thief. I'm not trying to flame you, (not sure about anyone else) and I'm trying to be very cordial here. You know, I know, and pretty much everyone else knows something needs to change for moderate thieves. There was definitely and overlook when IMMs added the moderate tier.[/quote']

Can you be more specific? What was the overlook on the Imms part? I did not think something had to change, honestly.

You did good with what you had. You used everything you could at your disposal like a thief should. You PK'd senseless and were annoying as hell. You made sure you stole those two things from everyone you ran into (usually the best things if you managed to blackjack me) and overall did VERY well as a thief.

Exactly what should be expected from an evil chaotic moderate tier thief that is well played is it not? I thank you for the compliment, I did indeed try to make the best of the situation. I still don't see what was OP or wrong about it.

I just think you'd have done better as a ruthless tier. Did you try the 50 cp outfit and see how that worked out? I mean the score you posted was pretty decent for moderate tier -- was it after the 5 cabal item drop or before? You had awesome saves for your hit/dam for only having a few select rares' date=' and your HR/DR wasn't something to be upset at. Your -ac was pretty good too.[/quote']

I am sure I'd have done better (if by better you mean been a stronger killer and more dangerous presence) as a ruthless too. Fact is I was content at being challenged all the time at the cost of the moderate penalties. My score sheet was with my prime set. It had since diminished when I lost a few good items in a death, and again once the change was made. I know that is a good score sheet. It is not godlike though, that was what I wanted to point out, and it could have been better with a few buffs, but that was pretty much as good as I would ever get it.

I'm very positive you can get back up and dust yourself off' date=' and find some awesome (BETTER) non-rares to help you along. Just gotta look.[/quote']

It's not like I died, got fulled, and need to pick myself back up. I still have all my things, I just cannot use them all anymore. The rug was pulled out from under me and I had no clue it was coming. I still do not agree that every cabal item is better than a rare. In fact if we were allowed to give out stats of rares and cabal eq I would happily show you all exactly how much better most rares are then the cabal eq in general.

I stopped playing because I believe I was unfairly nerfed. Why should a moderate tier not be competitive? Can anyone answer that question?

/---------------\/----------------------------------------------\

| Defkkoman || Pandemonius of PANDEMONIUM |

\---------------/\----------------------------------------------/

| Str: 20(20)^2 || Level: 50 Sex: M Age : 64(252h) |

| Int: 17(17) || Class: thief Ethos: chaotic |

| Wis: 17(17) || Race : slith Align: evil |

| Dex: 22(22)^1 || Hp : 920/920 Exp : 51345/540655 |

| Con: 19(18) || Mana : 386/550 |

\ Lck: [|||---] \/ Move : 430/432 +Hit: 22 +Dam: 24 /

/---------------/\------------------/\--------------------------\

| ARMOR || SAVES || Deity : Anume |

| Slash : -189 || Spell : -6 || Faith : Scourge |

| Pierce: -209 || Afflictive : -37 || Weight: 249/375 |

| Blunt : -190 || Maledictive: -8 || Items : 36/39 |

| Magic : -194 || Mental : -25 || Prac : 1 Train: 0 |

| || || Gold : 77k CP: 1.5k |

\---------------\/------------------\/--------------------------/

/ Condition: You have a few cuts and bruises. \

| You are ready for a cabal promotion. |

| [NEXUS] forces are aiding your violent instincts. |

\---------------------------------------------------------------/

This is me after the nerf. I am also still 2 rares over the limit here so I cannot wield any weapons untill I alter myeq again. Sure I could probably get by like this, maybe kill some less experienced players. Most of my cabal enemies will eat me for breakfast though now.

[Reccum]

Reccum' date=' I know I had NO interaction with this character at all. And I certainly was not saying anything bad about you, I just know I have aquired more backpacks with my moderate characters than I ever did with my ruthless ones. The "safety" of not losing my eq may have been the only reason for this as it made me braver from the start (less to lose). So my comments about stealing inventory items are just an observation of a completely abusable loop. I hope you bring back this character and continue to score points for team blue. [/quote']

If this had been changed overnight, I'd not have broken stride. I can live without stealing backpacks, besides id rather go for a juicy pry anyway. Especially when people have 5 backpacks, and at most 2 of them contain anything.

[Anume]

Stop picking on Deffk. He did very well with this character and I hope he dusts him off again eventually.

[Zhokril]

RE: f0xx

I honestly don't know what you're talking about with your 'mid-round changes' logic. So if you discover a combination, fight tactic, exploit, etc, that is entirely legal yet not balanced, I should leave it for you to use so that you can have fun winning an imbalanced matchup at the rest of the pbase's expense until you're done with the character? Right.

To clarify, that is NOT what happened here. Defkkoman did not abuse anything, nor was his char 'overpowered'. It is a question of staying within the design of the system, and the fact that we overlooked something in the first place is not going to change that. If the correction throws them out of balance, we'll analyze and correct it in a good way. What we won't do is just leave in a design flaw that may 'balance' them in overall PK, yet makes no sense or is unfair in specific aspects.

And yes, I realize you can't respond which is a bit lame, but I needed to say it.

For everyone: this is the post I made on our IMM forum regarding this issue. Hopefully it will clarify the reasoning:

This is the way I see this situation:

From a rare number perspective: Cabal items are, for all intents and purposes, exactly the same as rares in quality. It doesn't make any sense that they shouldn't count...the fact that we overlooked it in the first place should not factor into the decision.

From a looting perspective: Moderates are supposed to get a break when it comes to looting. BUT, this let's them have permanent very high quality items. The loot protection was only ever meant to cover items that were easily gain-able and just a 'time drain' (i.e., non-rares). I don't even like the fact the saders/DKs can get literally permanent high quality items....I'm not really comfortable with making it wholesale.

Solutions:

1) If you think the looting issue is too 'harsh' for moderates (which I don't, given loot protection was never even remotely intended for quality items), we could [snip]

2) If you think moderates can't compete with cabal equip factoring into rare numbers, we could [snip]. Again, the fact that we overlooked this in the first place doesn't mean we should cloud our judgment and make a 'bad' solution simply because of the way it was (i.e., making cabal items not count. This would greatly imbalance the system based on which class/race/cabal can put more cabal items to use, not to mention cabals vs. non-caballed).