"Ground Zero Mosque"

[Croyvern]

I was under the impression that the Jewish center was not rebuilt since they believe it being there would hinder the ability to build the Freedom Tower (is that thing still somewhere in planning?) where the WTC used to be.

Man if a terrorist blows up my neighbors shop, and mine is destroyed, I am going to be pissed when the country says we want to make his shop bigger and better so you can not rebuild. They would call it imminent domain no doubt. So when the jews blow up half the planet in order to make more room, let us not call them mass murderers, let us remember its just imminent domain. :eek: The all mighty dollar. All Hail the NYSE!

[Pali]

Why create a firestorm when you don't have to' date=' you know what I mean? I mean, there is having trouble and there is actively looking for it... this seems a little to close to the latter in my mind anyway.[/quote']

Well, earlier you seemed to be saying that you're okay with people preventing it from being built - now you seem to be saying that you just don't think it's a good idea to build it. Those are two different statements.

What I'm trying to point out to you here is the danger involved in allowing these kinds of arbitrary judgments to be the basis for what we accept as public policy. If we start allowing suspensions of one person's or group's right to free expression because it offends someone else, where do we stop? There's no metric for drawing that line. Certain rights have to be absolute, else they are meaningless.

Reality may not work this way - but that is not an argument against whether or not it SHOULD.

[KRins]

I, as an individual, think it is just dumb to even create this potential issue. Legally, my comm law classes say there is an angle for finding this building offensive. I don't think it is right that is a potential reality, but I also don't think terrorism is right. It is a tough subject... one minute I am wanting to be sensitive to the Islamic center people, the next minute I am wanting to be sensitive to the victims and their families. I'm not sure there is a right answer to this in the end. Yes, I agree an arbitrary decision would set a terrible precedence... but so would basically asking for a hate crime, which is a VERY real fear of mine when I think on this subject, even for as long as we have today.

[Pali]

See, I'm of the position that it is not people's feelings we should be concerned with, it is people's rights that we need to be concerned with. People's rights are what we need to preserve, and hurt feelings are not sufficient reason to my mind to violate them.

However, if anyone does make some kind of attack on Park 51, that is not the fault of Rauf or the others involved in building it. It will be the fault of the people carrying out the attack, and indirectly the fault of those who perpetuate anti-Islamic stereotypes... but let's not blame the victim here. A woman walking home in a skimpy outfit late at night is not asking to be raped - and no one in this situation is asking for Park 51 to be attacked.

[KRins]

Of course they aren't asking to be attacked directly. Of course a woman wearing something revealing isn't out trying to be raped. But at the same time, those things are possible. If I could sit down and speak with the people of the Islamic center I would say straight up, "I am honestly concerned you don't completely grasp exactly how strongly a lot of very ignorant people feel about this." We are both educated and seemingly mentally balanced (I'm more worried about me than you)... We both understand that not every terrorist is Islamic and not every Islamic person is a terrorist, many people do not grasp that. I have had students in 4000 level courses (seniors only essentially, a year or less from being out in the "real world") say that Islam should be outlawed in this country with all the conviction I have when I say "Go Braves!" (And I scream it from the depths of my soul). Yes no one is painting a bulls eye on Park 51, but that won't stop certain people from seeing it there. I am afraid for them. I don't want this to be the reason that all the foreign nations can finally be right about the United States being the home of hate, bloodthirst, and death.

[Pali]

I don't want this to be the reason that all the foreign nations can finally be right about the United States being the home of hate' date=' bloodthirst, and death.[/quote']

While I can understand this concern, I have to counter it by saying that telling people that Park 51 shouldn't be built because an attack is so likely to happen... is saying the exact same thing to the rest of the world as the attack itself would. The ONLY way to show that we aren't the home of hate is to let it be built, and to vocally endorse the rights of the builders in doing so. We cannot let fear keep us from holding to our principles.

[samag08]

As far as law is concerned I think that they have every right to build as they wish. However, that being said, they should also be realistic about the situation. If your son or daughter died on 9/11 , you would not want yet another reminder of that(if you live near the area.) It is not a question of "could" but "should". I suppose that lies directly in the minds and sensitivities of the people responsible for the project. Personally if I were to be building a place of worship, I would certainly try to avoid any potential conflicts regarding the citizens around the area. Some whose loved ones were killed might see this as just another reminder and a slap in the face to a degree. At any rate, there was a good line along the lines of "could?". Let them build it and just surround the place with "sssailor" bars. Fair for one is fair for all.

[KRins]

While I can understand this concern' date=' I have to counter it by saying that telling people that Park 51 shouldn't be built because an attack is so likely to happen... is saying the exact same thing to the rest of the world as the attack itself would. The ONLY way to show that we aren't the home of hate is to let it be built, and to vocally endorse the rights of the builders in doing so. We cannot let fear keep us from holding to our principles.[/quote']

You are 100% right, the only counter to terrorism is steadfast resolve to persevere. I'm going to quote star wars here though... "I've got a bad feeling about this..."

[Pali]

Personally if I were to be building a place of worship' date=' I would certainly try to avoid any potential conflicts regarding the citizens around the area.[/quote']

True, and I do sympathize with this position... but the possibility occurs to me that some may have thought that building a community center might be a way to help the healing process along, to help fight against the idea that Islam is anti-American by nature... and that goal is one I can sympathize with as well.

[KRins]

True' date=' and I do sympathize with this position... but the possibility occurs to me that some may have thought that building a community center might be a way to help the healing process along, to help fight against the idea that Islam is anti-American by nature... and that goal is one I can sympathize with as well.[/quote']

If this works out as a step in this direction, I honestly would be pleased beyond description. There was too much hate in the world before 9/11... we do need to heal instead of just put a band-aid on it with wars and other "victories over our enemies."

[Zavero]

Putting the mosque where they are wanting to put it isn't helping anything. It is causing nothing but hate and violent attacks against american-indians who may or may not even follow this religion.

[Pali]

Why American-Indians, Zavero? I could understand Arab-Americans being targeted, as most Americans tend to equate Arab with Muslim...

[Zavero]

American indians. Not native americans. Indian being a term other than arab.

[Pali]

I understood that. My question remains. In my experience, most people distinguish between peoples of Arabic and Indian descent, and Indians tend to be grouped more as Hindu.

[inscribed]

theres only one type of american indian.

[f0xx]

theres only one type of american indian.

Yes, and he is not talking about the (native) american indians, but about the hindu indians, as pali referred to them.

Btw, I agree with Pali here, there is a difference between India's indians and the Arabs.

[Zavero]

So you want me to distinguish between American Indians and Arabs? You guys are picky as hell. The point remains that the 'peoples' who descend from others who were born in the middle east are being attacked. Better or does it need to be specific to the actual nationality to get my point across?

[f0xx]

Lol dude, american indians are not muslims therefore they do not pray in mosques therefore this mosque will not breed any hatred towards them. How the hell did even native american indians get into this thread?

This thread is not about racism. It is about religion and terrorism

Now step aside and let me watch Pali vs KRins. Its good to see someone else rather than manboobs and myself arguing

[Zavero]

I didn't say Native Americans you dolt. I said American Indians whom will be persecuted just like a Arabs due to the similiar physical features. The point is that there have been attacks in NYC, NY against middle easteners because of this mosque that has come into question. It is totally relevant because they are questioning laws and morals of putting the mosque close to ground zero. THUS breeding hate, resentment, and discontent.

Edit: I realize that you are in a different country Foxx, however, where I am from we do not call Native Americans, American Indians. They will get offended. I live in Oklahoma which has several tribes. My fiancée is a Native american. NOT an American Indian.

[Mali]

LOL Zavero. -10 points for confusing and/or misleading diction. Try to make a clear point with common grammar. This will enhance the readability of your submission.

I don't normally quote wikipedia, but in this case it will suffice:

American Indian

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

American Indian may refer to:

Native Americans in the United States

Indigenous people of the Americas

Indian American

Americans in India

With a hyphen, India – United States relations, (e.g., "an American-Indian treaty")

This term is almost never used to describe foreigners or those with arabic ancestry or followers of the islamic faith even if they are citizens of the United States.

FAIL.

[mmajunkie]

hasted reading on my part

[Zavero]

Do you always quote wiki Mali? Such a useful source of information considering anyone can post information on it.

Say or call them what you will, it does not change the fact that violence is occuring because of this mosque.

[Pali]

Zavero, violence and intolerance has been occurring to brown-skinned people in the US for a very, very long time - since long before 9/11, though that certainly caused a spike in it. This is not the only Islamic center in the country being built now, and it's also not the only one that has people riled up and protesting it - Sheboygan, WI; Murfreesboro, TN; Florence, KY; Temecula, CA.

This is widespread intolerance against Muslims - and it's happening whether they build a community center near Ground Zero or not.

P.S. And no, violence is not occurring because of this mosque. Violence is occurring because of racist pricks deciding to hurt people based on their skin tone/religion. They may be riled up because of the mosque's construction - but that is not the fault of those building it. Again, let's not be blaming the victims here.

[Zavero]

Yes you are correct Pali. It isn't specific to this mosque. Do you think good can come from placing it so close to a wound? I am not against it as I said in an earlier post. I just don't think it solves any issues with the over all problem that people have of Muslims. Even if that problem is based on the actions of radicals.

I mention violence because there has been an increase in NYC because of this particular mosque. Not saying it is only this mosque or situation though.

[Pali]

Do you think good can come from placing it so close to a wound?

Can good come out of this? Yes. Will it? I don't know.

But just as it's wrong to say that if wives just wouldn't say mean things to their husbands they wouldn't be beaten by them, it's wrong to say that if Muslims just didn't build a mosque near Ground Zero they wouldn't be attacked by racists. Neither statement places the blame for the outcome on the proper subject: the person who is committing the crime. I don't care how offensively this may be perceived by some people - at no point are they justified in attacking someone because of it.