"Ground Zero Mosque"

[Balgashang]

Thing is, on every side you have people that just say they are religious. The book of moses is common in the torah, bible, and koran, along with the ten commandments. Although the three major religions differ, they all worship the -same- god, and all break the ten commandments in gods name. People are just stupid, we need another bubonic plague.

[mmajunkie]

Amen Balg.

[f0xx]

Religion should be forbidden by law.

[KRins]

Religion should be forbidden by law.

Do you have any reasons? Religion might not work for you... but you've gone from my suggestions that hamper free expression to creating a doorway to completely extinguishing free expression.

[f0xx]

Do you have any reasons? Religion might not work for you... but you've gone from my suggestions that hamper free expression to creating a doorway to completely extinguishing free expression.

Please.

An artificially created reason for old time rulers to declare war on whoever they want.

And while we are on the subject of religion, 9/11 and wars, why did the USA declare war on Iraq? Because of terrorism? Does anyone see a connection there?

An artificially created reason to declare war on whatever country you decide -> religion (in the past) -> terrorism (nowadays).

I promised myself not to get involved in this though.

Just remember there is a huge difference between FAITH and RELIGION. The first does not need the second.

[Pali]

Religion should be forbidden by law.

No, it should not. People's rights to freedom of speech, thought, expression, and civil organization and community-building should not be infringed upon, under any circumstances.

[Mali]

Yeah Foxx, they tried that in the failed USSR. It didn't work out so well. Anyone else noticing an increase in European extremism on these boards?

[Balgashang]

Just remember there is a huge difference between FAITH and RELIGION. The first does not need the second.

Not really, faith is defined as having a belief in something, and religion is defined by a group of people sharing the same beliefs, they kinda go hand in hand

[f0xx]

Really mate, do you know greater evil on earth than religion? Millions and perhaps billions have died due to it, be it in wars or in acts of terrorism. Uneducated and easy to manipulate people are suiciding everyday in the name of a "higher cause".

I can't even grasp how some intelligent and well educated person could "believe in god".

@Balgashang: You can have faith without being religious. I have faith in my family, relatives and friends. I don't have faith in some non existant super creature.

[Zavero]

It's going downhill fast!

Time bomb, baby!

[KRins]

See f0xx... there is full shipping container worth of holes in your logic. No one can prove religion was artificially created. Unless you croak, have a chat at the pearly gates, and then catch a return flight... then you cannot say with your level of conviction that religion is artificial. I cannot have a logical debate with someone who declares in absolute terms to have knowledge on a topic that NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE WORLD has been able to acquire despite an almost endless quest for said knowledge over... you know... MILLENNIUMS...

As far as Iraq not being a terrorist nation... How does everyone forget Saddam gassing the Kurds? Yes, not everyone in Iraq was or is a terrorist, but its a damn fact that Saddam was...and fact of the matter is that he had an army we had to rip through to get to him so it required a war. Beyond taking out Saddam... it would have been DAMN irresponsible of the coalition to leave a power vacuum in Iraq after taking out Saddam. I can pretty much guarantee that vacuum would have been filled by the next nasty guy with the biggest guns. Its easy to say we just want oil, because we do... but nothing in this world is ever so cut and dried as that.

[Balgashang]

Really mate, do you know greater evil on earth than religion? Millions and perhaps billions have died due to it, be it in wars or in acts of terrorism. Uneducated and easy to manipulate people are suiciding everyday in the name of a "higher cause".

I can't even grasp how some intelligent and well educated person could "believe in god".

@Balgashang: You can have faith without being religious. I have faith in my family, relatives and friends. I don't have faith in some non existant super creature.

Yea, Greed/Power. Religion is manipulated by people for power over others, hence my point about about the common ground that the three major religions seem to ignore when it comes to each other. The reason why I brought up faith being hand in hand with religion, is because of the context of this discussion. If everyone -lived- by thier religious beliefs, earth would be a utopic society.

Of course you can have faith in your family, and not be religious. But that was not what you were talking about at the time. People can have faith in a higher power too and not be religious, but at the same point, once you get 6 billion people together, the same ideas will eventually start popping up. Religion is inevitable, and actually gives great guidelines for conducting yourself, and to live by. But again, my point was that the religions ignore thier own doctrine when it comes to each other.

[f0xx]

But again' date=' my point was that the religions ignore thier own doctrine when it comes to each other.[/quote']

Of course, because that is how they were designed. Quite fitting, isn't it?

[Balgashang]

Of course' date=' because that is how they were designed. Quite fitting, isn't it? [/quote']

Umm....no...not at all. Just because you might not believe in something, it would be useful to actually research what you're about to be talking about instead of just pulling it outta your ***. No where in any of three books, does it actually say to go and kill one of the other religions. And if you're going to argue it does, please bring a source.

[mmajunkie]

Foxx doesn't need sources.

[f0xx]

Umm....no...not at all. Just because you might not believe in something' date=' it would be useful to actually research what you're about to be talking about instead of just pulling it outta your ***. No where in any of three books, does it actually say to go and kill one of the other religions. And if you're going to argue it does, please bring a source.[/quote']

Now, I am not religious and I don't read such "sources". But we've all heard about the holy crusades and the jihad?

*shrug*

And manboobs, please bring me a source that proves the existance of this higher being?

[Balgashang]

Wow, yea the crusades and taking of the holy lands etc. Reasons drummed up like you said for other gain. Just religion happens to be the excuse to do it. Religion is not evil, how it is used is what determines whether its evil or not. A stick is a stick, but if you use it to knock someone out with, its a weapon.

And as for 'sources' yes, they are real sources. Whether you believe in them or not is irrelevant. Those books are where everyone gets thier concept of the three major religions.

The jihad is an internal struggle within a person to do right or wrong, the term has a bad rap.

[f0xx]

both were started by men manipulating religion and religious beliefs. the jihad is supposed to be an internal struggle' date=' not an external one.[/quote']

Isn't the whole thing a big manipulation? You know how christianity became popular right?

[mmajunkie]

I never said I believed in a higher being, Foxx....

[Balgashang]

foxx, the concept of religion, is not a bad thing, and yes, I do know how christianity became popular. The torah, bible, and Koran are all benign. And like MMA said, I am not a religious person either, my only points are religion, itself, is not bad. Like you just said, it might be a whole big manipulation, but its men that are doing it. The books are not casting some sort of evil charm spell on men, men are going hey, this is a great idea, how i can manipulate this to sway the masses.

and my other point was, know what you're talking about when trying to speak from a position of authority. everyone is entitled to an opinion foxx, but you act like you -know- for something certain, when generally its your opinion you're trying to pass off as knowledge or oh i heard this so it must be true, I won't bother to check up on it

[Imoutgoodbye]

I'm hungry. Two days without eating. Three teeth cut out by an oral surgeon and the bastard wouldn't even put me out.

Man, I'm so hungry, I'd like to get me a mosque sandwich. Is that one of those burgers from Burger King...no, that's a Rodeo Burger. Definitely want a Rodeo Burger. I'd be happy to eat anything right now.

Oh, wait.....this isn't the thread that leads to the cafeteria? Hmmm....

*grumbles and walks on his way*

[Pali]

Wow... there's a religious debate going on, and it's only tangentially caused by me?

Now, there are plenty of places in the scriptures of all three Abrahamic religions that say exactly where killing those not of the faith is justified - for example, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, which mandates the destruction of a town if even just a few people in it are preaching against God, or Sura 5:33 which grants apostasy the death penalty. There are far from the only places... each book has a number of them. (Foxx: you'll find anti-scriptural arguments are a lot stronger when you can quote the verses . Also, arguments from incredulity and ad hominems don't help.)

There are ALSO places in each religion's scripture that give blanket condemnations of killing. The simple fact is that religious scripture is often inconsistent, and literal readings often cannot be applied to the moral teachings for the simple fact that they are contradicted somewhere else. While I'd personally prefer it if people gave up magical thinking altogether, if they're not going to, I'm quite all right with settling for them cherry-picking their holy books for the parts that actually contain good teachings.

EDIT:

foxx' date=' the concept of religion, is not a bad thing[/quote']

Belief without evidence being put forward as a virtue is, to my mind, a very bad thing.

P.S. Yes, I have evidence to support that.

[abghoul]

Good thing or bad thing, religion of some form is a neccessity.

The mind seems to need the "what is the cause" or "who is to blame" stuff set with it.

[Pali]

I don't find it necessary at all. EDIT: I agree that assuming teleology is instinctive - but that's because it's useful, not because it's always accurate.

[Mindflayer]

Religion was man's answer before science.