"Ground Zero Mosque"

[abghoul]

and since the positivistic approach of most scientists, truth is again abondoned by science, so for the truth issue, like what is "really" happening, will and has, is again a religious, hmmm..., lets say metaphysic approach.

[Atticus]

Zombies bro. Zombies. :eek:

[Pali]

Religion was man's answer before science.

To a degree, at least when it comes to explaining the behavior and history of the universe. However, the Non-Overlapping Magisteria argument, that religion and science try to answer different questions, is partially accurate - there are questions that religion asks that science is incapable by its very methodology of finding an answer to, such as "why are we here?" My objection to religion here rests on the fact that it claims to have definitive answers to those questions, when it can't support them.

My position is that "Why are we here?" is asking the wrong question, that it's assuming teleology, assuming that our existence must have an intentional purpose behind it when that has not been demonstrated, and so we do not have sufficient basis for even asking "WHY" we are here. The question we should be asking is "How did we come to be here?", because this question is not assuming anything beforehand - and it is a question that science has found most of the answer to, and that answer doesn't give us any reason to suppose a "why" we are here.

[Pali]

truth is again abondoned by science

Not at all. The truth value of a claim simply needs to be demonstrable, because otherwise there is no possible way for someone to evaluate whether or not the claim is correct - and revelation is by definition not demonstrable, unless it is prophetical, and I have yet to read a prophecy that is specific, verified, and wasn't self-fulfilling.

[abghoul]

Claims by someone , yes.

So, you mean that truth is only what is demonstrated by a human intellect to another human intellect as a demonstrable effect.

Well, there is another approach to truth as absolute, not valuable, state of the reality and not the human mind.

And it is not very likely we ever find out that one, for as long we exist in the reality, truth is reduced to the imaginable.

[Pali]

I'm not saying that truth is dependent upon the human mind... but what we consider to be truth is. Claiming to have truth is hubris... claiming to have some level of understanding of it must be demonstrated. I have to ask you this: if a claim cannot be demonstrated in some way to be true (or at least a good reflection of truth), how can anyone be expected to think it is?

One of the things I appreciate about science is that science doesn't work with truth claims... science works with models that are useful for understanding reality, models that are continuously refined as we learn more about the universe.

[abghoul]

Yes, a guy with some book in his hand, yelling about the truth beeing told in there is a poor illustration of "religion" in general.

A model to explain is of course the better approach to science, but it gives up actual relation to truth, and sets a "very likely" value rather.

Still there is an urge to define truth, though it might be impossible.

Religion CAN help, even without actually telling the truth, by claiming theese needs to be set.

[f0xx]

Nothing like a Pali backup

[jibber]

Here we go. Another religion talk. Count me out of this thread.

[abghoul]

If a mosque is built or not at "ground zero" sounds like an religious thread to me.

[Pali]

If a mosque is built or not at "ground zero" sounds like an religious thread to me.

I actually considered it more a matter of civil rights than religion, myself.

I'm curious... what "needs" does religion address, in any way that can be verified? Religions claim to address questions regarding humanity's role in the universe, why we are here, how we should treat each other... but they have no basis for the judgments they make on those subjects.

P.S.

Nothing like a Pali backup

Backup in the sense of supporting your conclusions, not the arguments you made in favor of them.

[jibber]

Nah, had hardly anything to do with religion. It had everything to do with the controversy it might cause due to the 'holy war' that the so called religious folk called it, that took down the 9/11 towers.

I suppose you could say it was slightly about religion, but.. I saw it more of a controversial thread in how people felt about a Mosque being built near ground zero.

[Pali]

I suppose you could say it was slightly about religion' date=' but.. I saw it more of a controversial thread in how people felt about a Mosque being built near ground zero.[/quote']

This was exactly the subject I wished to gather people's feelings on, not religion in general. However, I'm perfectly fine with conversations going in unanticipated (or more correctly, unintended) directions.

[f0xx]

P.S.

Backup in the sense of supporting your conclusions, not the arguments you made in favor of them.

You always have to ruin everything Pali

[Pali]

I'm not going to accept bad arguments just because they happen to be in favor of my position. Good arguments are good arguments, bad arguments are bad arguments... the conclusion is irrelevant in such judgments.

[mmajunkie]

Religion to me is a matter of purpose for people who can't find it elsewhere. Regardless of what deep-seated validation for its message or reasonings. People need a sense of belonging in life and for a lot of people, religion gives them that. They don't question the origins most of the time, they just cling to it and call it faith.

Religion does a lot of good in a lot of peoples' lives in my opinion. I don't subscribe to it and I am against it in a lot of ways....but there is no denying that some people are made better because of their 'faith'

I believe that you should be a good person because it is the right thing to do...not because some book tells you to, or because you'll be rewarded for it. I don't believe in a higher power or a god or anything else. I don't believe in an afterlife or a heaven. I believe when you die..you're dead, the end. Does that make me any less of a person? In my personal life I am just as kind and caring as any devout Christian, if not moreso. I may not portray that here in FL or on the forum, but that's the beauty of the internet, I can let go of certain things that I would rather not let come out in my personal life.

Religion also turns weak minded people into fanatics. People who kill to spread their own message or gain power for their own cause. If not for religion, then it would be something else. Politics, money, whatever. Religion is no worse than a lot of other things...it is people who make it bad.

C'est la vie. The human race is an ugly, screwed up breed and nothing will ever change that. If there are not holy wars going on, there will be oil wars or racial wars.

That being said, you can't alienate an entire religion based on a certain percentage of that religions' more fanatical followers. Christians have killed MANY people in their history in the name of their god...but none of you Christians would stop them from opening up a missionary school in Iraq or Israel.

There is already a mosque in the neighborhood, but it is run-down and is more like a shanty than anything else. This new mosque will not be built within viewing distance of ground-zero, it is not a full-fledged mosque, and it poses no new threat than the old one. The only reason people are up in arms about the whole thing is because humans always need a reason to argue and prove a point and somehow prove their superiority over something else. The mosque being built is not disrespectful in any way. Perhaps if it was built right across the street in plain view...but who gets to say what the distance requirement is? By that argument, any mosque built within NYC should be labeled disrespectful. Two blocks away is well out of viewing/listening distance in that neighborhood.

[f0xx]

Well said.

[abghoul]

When i speak of "religion" i am not aiming at any particular one, rather the phenomenon.

I met some very desperate people while beeing on the vagabond mode.

Some turned onto religion to help them.

Wich religion was usually defined by heritage.

If their mother was muslim, they would, at least first, seek the Islam for some kind of salvation.

Wrecked therapies tend to reduce the trust in psychiatry in general, so folk that endured such have little but religion to help them from their neurosis or whatever.

But people dont need really ugly social situations to generate despair.

This is where the need for some kind of salvation from the oddities of reality might be coming from.

You start restricting people seeking it, even an very unsmart approach like the "ground zero mosque", you end up restrict something that is really needed by the people in general, not you, not me, maybe none you know, but someones.

Greetings from the pit

[abghoul]

mmajunkie put it so nicely, but i cant edit my post...