Sartach

[Anume]

Using the law to get a lawman into trouble, why would that be ooc for a Watcher? I think the GAT is a nice rp tool (thanks, Toldin for writing it up ) that makes ic problems / complaints easier to handle for the tribby imm.

[Evangelion]

I tend to agree with Twinblades.

I think it would be more in line for a Syndicate to use the system to their advantage that way. A Watcher, in my opinion, wouldn't be interested in using a part of the system to function against the system - they would be too skeptical of its viability.

But then again, I, too, I have no idea what a GAT is.

[Dale]

I got the spear GAT, from the yacht.

[Twinblades713]

Using the law to get a lawman into trouble' date=' why would that be ooc for a Watcher? I think the GAT is a nice rp tool (thanks, Toldin for writing it up ) that makes ic problems / complaints easier to handle for the tribby imm.[/quote']

You used to be the Watcher imm! How can you even say this! Isn't the point of Watcher (Warder more specifically) to end the Tribunal? In using these forms it punishes single officers, but it strengthens the system as a whole. Assuming the Watcher cares and is literate, I feel (and my Watchers have felt) that just killing the guys is a much better way of dealing with them than sitting in the bureaucracy line.

[Aulian]

Yeah - could you see Dumela writing a GAT form?

"Te' bloo' nu'e' atta' me' in tha' t'ere ci'y an' tha' no' t'ere hal' o' tha' t'ere pro'llem."

[The-Nameless]

DUmela writing a gat form would be the equivilant of filling out a police report by smearing poo on it.

[Mindflayer]

epic

[Imoutgoodbye]

Would I, as a Watcher, use the system to break the spirit of the lawmen to eventually bring about the downfall of the system?

Yep. Know your enemy and use all the weapons at your disposal. Take the high ground and rain lightning from the heavens.

[jibber]

Cookie cutter RP of a Watcher would actually demand you stay far away from Tribunal politics, (IMHO) especially with Warders.

I mean, if you have some sort of RP where you're a Warder and want to take down the Empire from within, go for it... but we're missing the point here. I always felt so OOC when I mentioned a Tribunal breaking their own law. Like why should my character care? And I always had to re-iterate on prayer forum, too.

Eh.. just me I guess.

[f0xx]

Cookie cutter RP of a Watcher would actually demand you stay far away from Tribunal politics, (IMHO) especially with Warders.

I mean, if you have some sort of RP where you're a Warder and want to take down the Empire from within, go for it... but we're missing the point here. I always felt so OOC when I mentioned a Tribunal breaking their own law. Like why should my character care? And I always had to re-iterate on prayer forum, too.

Eh.. just me I guess.

Not just you.

Writing a GAT form itself means following law. Why should a watcher who fights against law use their system? Hell, why should a watcher even know the existance of such forms?

I mean, the whole purpose of the existance of Watcher (and warder more specially) is the difference in their views. By using the tribunal system you basicly admit defeat.

[Pali]

Not just you.

Writing a GAT form itself means following law. Why should a watcher who fights against law use their system? Hell, why should a watcher even know the existance of such forms?

I mean, the whole purpose of the existance of Watcher (and warder more specially) is the difference in their views. By using the tribunal system you basicly admit defeat.

Are you kidding me? Having a very detailed knowledge of the law and what those who follow it are permitted to do sounds exactly like information that a Watcher would find extremely useful. There's a huge difference between knowing about a set of beliefs and practices and believing and following those beliefs and practices. If your enemy is sworn to behave in a certain manner, it's prudent to know as much as possible about that manner so that you can anticipate what he's going to do... which is something that any real-life criminal can tell you. Knowing what the cops can and can't do is extremely valuable information, whether you follow the laws yourself or not.

Also, what's wrong with using your enemy's systems against them? It doesn't mean you believe in that system - it just means you've found something that you see as a chink in their metaphorical armor, and you're attempting to exploit it and weaken them a bit through doing so.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Are you kidding me? Having a very detailed knowledge of the law and what those who follow it are permitted to do sounds exactly like information that a Watcher would find extremely useful. There's a huge difference between knowing about a set of beliefs and practices and believing and following those beliefs and practices. If your enemy is sworn to behave in a certain manner, it's prudent to know as much as possible about that manner so that you can anticipate what he's going to do... which is something that any real-life criminal can tell you. Knowing what the cops can and can't do is extremely valuable information, whether you follow the laws yourself or not.

Also, what's wrong with using your enemy's systems against them? It doesn't mean you believe in that system - it just means you've found something that you see as a chink in their metaphorical armor, and you're attempting to exploit it and weaken them a bit through doing so.

*shakes Pali's hand* I'm starting to think I have man-crush.

[f0xx]

Also' date=' what's wrong with using your enemy's systems against them?[/quote']

Yes, there is nothing wrong with that if you are an unscrupulous evil. When the battle is on ideological level though, using the system you are fighting against is OOC.

That is basicly like saying it's ok for a knight to kill a child if that will help him destroy a demon.

But hey, that is what RP is for, to express our differences in understanding different RP. If you manage to pull out what you are suggesting (and since I see anume basicly agrees with you, I won't be surprised if you actually do) then I will slap you on your back for job well done.

[Pali]

Foxx... a recent survey found that in the United States, atheists have a higher level of general knowledge about religion than any religious group.

Knowing about an ideology and following that ideology are very distinct concepts. There's nothing about Watchers that mandates that they have no knowledge of the law, nor that they can't use the law to their advantage. How is it not Watcher-like to take advantage of a way in which the law can be turned against itself? The Warder ideal is the destruction of large-scale civilization - it's not disorder, it's not chaos, and even if it were, using such a weakness within an otherwise orderly system to create chaos within it sounds like perfectly chaotic behavior to me (Oppressant seems like a good example of such).

[f0xx]

Pali, I am sure we can argue about this on and on and in the end none of us will change his opinion (especially you )

The way I see things, when they come down to an ideology and concept, using the system you are fighting against is defeat.

If my character is someone who kills people that kill children, then would killing a child myself justify his destruction?

If I fight against law, will using law itself justify the destruction of a Tribunal who has behaved bad? Wouldn't that infact mean that LAW system actually works well? Wouldn't me using law to prove my point make me just as bad as a tribunal? And overall, why would someone who has gone as far as becoming a mass murder and destroyer in his struggle to overthrow law bend so much and use it?

We are not talking about a single Tribunal here, we are talking about believes, concept, understanding and ideologies.

[Pali]

Again... Watcher is not necessarily anti-law. Watcher is anti-civilization. I don't think any Watcher would argue that there aren't natural laws, or that there aren't laws within groups of beings (edit: last I heard, Watcher doesn't allow coups and is neutral only - these are behavioral codes, aka laws).

You're arguing anarchy (though I have never heard of an anarchist who is unwilling to use the law to protect herself when she needs to). Watcher is not necessarily anarchist.

[mmajunkie]

I have to agree with Foxx, in most RP instances for Watcher.

They do not believe in Empirical law or the system, so why would they try to use it?

Yes, it might get the Tribunal in trouble...

But the question I think that turns the tide here is

Would a Watcher really believe the Empirical system would work in the favor of a Watcer?

[jibber]

I agree with f0xx. I disagree with Pali (a lot.. oddly). Thing is, that's the beauty of RP. Do what you want, as long as you stick to that RP, whether it's cookie cutter or off-the-wall RP for a Watcher.

Whatever, right?

And please, Pali, let's not turn this into another damn religion discussion. Go back to the Lounge for that

[Pali]

And please' date=' Pali, let's not turn this into another damn religion discussion. Go back to the Lounge for that [/quote']

Who-da-what-now? I make a contextually-relevant reference (recent news, so it came to mind easily), and that's me trying to start a religious debate? If I'd referenced Democrats who don't want to spend money they don't have would I be starting a political debate?

Also, just to be clear, I'm the one arguing in favor of expanded RP potential - others are saying what Watchers can't be, I'm arguing ways in which they could be.

[mmajunkie]

I can play Devil's Advocate too

Like I said, I think a Watcher at his truest form would be against using a GAT. I agree that there are different RP angles for everyone and I'm sure I could RP a good Watcher that believes in corrupting the system from within and watching it be destroyed or just using their own system against them, whatever.

But I think fundamentally, Watchers for the most part do not believe in the empirical system nor do they believe it 'works'

[mmajunkie]

Who-da-what-now? I make a contextually-relevant reference (recent news' date=' so it came to mind easily), and that's me trying to start a religious debate? If I'd referenced Democrats who don't want to spend money they don't have would I be starting a political debate?[/quote']

I think he was joking...you sound awfully defensive on the issue though

[Pali]

I think he was joking...you sound awfully defensive on the issue though

You'd be amazed how often me mentioning anything related to religion/nonreligion is treated as me trying to start an argument on that subject.

P.S.

But I think fundamentally' date=' Watchers for the most part do not believe in the empirical system nor do they believe it 'works'[/quote']

"Imperial", not "empirical". Watchers are against the first - I don't see any reason to suspect that they have something against evidence-based reasoning.

[f0xx]

You know, when Zrothum agrees with me, then you should really consider that I have a point

[mmajunkie]

They are against empirical systems when being used by the Tribunal

[Pali]

You guys don't like the idea of a Watcher pragmatist, eh?