Ranting of a Retired Veteran

[Mister E]

Despite not playing FL, I have had lots of time to think about it. It recently occurred to me that most lvl 50 pk activity is actually happening with the express purpose of forcing your enemy to log off. I find this to be incredibly perplexing. If the goal of the players is to attract and keep new blood, then isn't it counter-productive to drive people to the point of logging off? When I was playing Laence I would not have condied in 2 months if I had not been moderate. The smurf tier allowed me to stay online despite incredible odds against me. Once I was initially looted I virtually had LI up for the duration of my playtime (disarms and thieves aside). I shudder to imagine how frustrating it would have been had I been full looted each time I died instead. What this showed me though is how hard people will try to completely destroy you. I avoided every chance I had to gang other people for the first 80% of Laences life, only after being on the receiving end of it nearly every time I logged in I began to gang back. This just perpetuates bad blood and keeps the cycle alive though. It is just sad that logging out is most peoples only option sometimes. I cannot say I blame only the players for doing it, there are game mechanics at fault too (but which I cannot say exactly because I don't know). But what does it lead too? Few people playing many characters constantly logging in and out depending on who is online. Very few (especially ruthless) chars will stay an fight the odds, and when they do they often incur a heavy toll. To me this is why FL is failing the player retention game. It takes a lot of effort to fully train and pinn a character. At the same time there is still that myth that characters are sacred and valuable (despite how many get thrown away). Yet at the same time even the Imms will tell you to log off when things get too rough for your character. Is this not a bit crazy? A lot of people have limited playtime, so what is there choice? To either stay around and fight the odds and eventually rage in frustration, or keep rolling new characters since it is too dangerous to play their main. I'll use Slinore as an example (no flaming here intended). He was solely responsible for more than half of Laences deaths. We had a vendetta with each other so we fought a lot. He had many options though, considering the uphill battle it was for me. He could have mercied me many times, though he did not, he could have chosen not to attack me when I was already in combat with someone else, though he did not. Because of my refusal to log off I payed the price of early condeath. He is still around though, and part of that is because he knew when to log off. I recall at least 10 instances where I had just gotten the snot beat out of me why multiple watchers and then Grum would log on and within seconds Slinore logged off. There are countless examples of the same thing over the years where people sense a threat they cannot overcome and simply leave. My beef is that this game actually encourages such behavior. Live to fight another day, don't die needlessly, these are mantras FL has instilled in us. Combine the great discrepancy of EQ and it is no wonder the game is in the shape it is in. The rewards of PK are immediate and that is why people PK ruthlessly. Even though they are doing themselves a disservice in the long run. The rewards of RP are extremely rare and the punishments for bad RP are too non-existent.

Long story short, how much fun is it to spend almost all your time building up a character when all you will do at lvl 50 is calculate when it is safe to log in and hoard eq/consumables, or spend your time looking over your decked shoulder praying you can earn enough CP to keep that LI up a little longer.

[mmajunkie]

Long live PK.

[Twinblades713]

We need to cut the fat, but it's hanging on vigorously.

[jibber]

I rarely use LI and I don't log off when odds are against me. I agree its ridiculous that even that choice is available. Oh well...

[Dale]

You know I've had my own thought about issues with this game since I stopped playing aswell. While you raised some interesting points I don't think that's a problem most people can't get over. Either by logging onto another char or just taking a breather, I think that the biggest issue is full loots/denial of apps or just plain limited encounters. And without trying to attack the staff I'd like to say that if there were alot more qraces/tattoos/rp plots/other gifts ect. being handed out then alot of people would proboly still be playing.

Then again not knowing everything about the game or playig every qrace is what brings most players back ten years in a row.

[mmajunkie]

It brings us old timers back...doesn't keep new players here. Obviously.

[Mmm Coffee]

Speaking directly at your point about people logging off when other people log on, there's a chain effect that goes something like this (and I'm just drawing chars out of thin air)

Zaruuk logs on, Knight Inductee logs off

Slinore logs on, Zaruuk logs off

Grum logs on, Slinore logs off

Drow ninja logs on, Grum logs off

...and on it goes because all classes have a bane.

Other factors to consider:

Certain players log a ton of hours/day and at the end of a long day, you are bound to be tired and make mistakes. Against certain other players (when they are playing powerful chars), if I've been on 3-4 hours and have had a good run during that time, statistically my chances of f'ing up are increased against a vet who is fresh and all Dexter like.

Other things to consider are: Do I want to burn through a ton of consumables against an opponent who is not even vendetta'd? Or, I just spent 3 hours getting gear/zombies/whatever, do I really want to risk losing one right now? Maybe said char has been having intermittent connection issues but there was no blatant threat so they stayed logged-on...however, nobody wants to fight Grum when you have connection issues.

I guess my point is there are ebbs and flows to everything...FL/PK is no different. It's one big rock vs. scissors. vs paper (even though paper sucks)

[Imoutgoodbye]

*shrug* What are you going to do? I mean, this is why I delete after taking six or eight deaths in a day.

I always hear about what I have to do to get better. Thankfully the moderate tier came around so I COULD try to get better without having to log off because I was either full looted or half-looted.

Then again, I don't like the idea of my character being killed off so quickly, thus I've decided to avoid cabals all together with my moderate character and take the small amount of protection I can get from that tier. I'd actually prefer it if I was out of PK circulation from all characters for a little longer when I die as a moderate and out of PK for the person that killed me for 24 hours real life time. *shrug* I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a pansy for wanting some kind of break from PK. I pick the moderate tier for a reason.

I'm sick of the looting, the "rubbing" it in that I died, and everything else that generally annoys me.

What we need is our own Jason "Mayhem" Miller.

[Erana]

You are definitely not the only people who see the forced logout problem.

This problem is very similar to the-nameless's recent post and suggestion.

There are a lot of core problems here and it is a very complicated and even dangerous thing to tinker with. You have to think about EQ circulation and balancing, the consequences of lost PK, the effects of having multiple characters, the effects and methods of alternatives to active PK, how to balance time, and even long-standing tradition and culture when it comes to how the game itself is to be played.

That all being said, barring some miracle solution, we can only take it a step at a time.

[f0xx]

This is a sensitive subject.

There are problems with out PK system but those problems have existed for so long that our PB now seems to take them as a feature and a downside to being caballed.

Being killed over and over until you log out. That is the only scenario one can experience in a warfare unless we are talking about the back and forth capture the flag scenario.

I personally believe that our cabal warfare system needs a total re-haul. I've tried suggesting something, so we stay constructive, whether this would be better than what we currently have though, I don't know. I only know that I've been both on the giving and receiving end of warfare system and recently mostly on the receiving, hence the fact that even when I have free time I prefer doing something else than playing, because I know I will end up against multiple enemies with cabal rank higher than mine and will almost certainly end up dying and naked. For what?

Rewards can inspire people to stay against the odds but they are so inconsistent and biased.

Custom titles, custom items, tattoos, cabal ranks are tools which the immortals can use to stimulate one.

For those things to work though we need:

a) active staff

non-biases decisions (i.e. you judge the character, not the person behind the character)

[Imoutgoodbye]

For those things to work though we need:

a) active staff

non-biases decisions (i.e. you judge the character, not the person behind the character)

I'm going to take this particular portion of your post and work with it before I go back to working on the more complex forms of factoring rational expressions. *grumbles about math making little sense*

On the A portion:

This would be good. However, it's a touchy subject, as you say earlier in your post. Now, we can look at this in two ways: We all have lives (haha!) and our staff number is low. And I do mean it is low.

Let's split this down a little further. There's not jack **** we can do about the fact we all have higher priorities than a game. Putting life before a game SHOULD be a priority. 99% of us would rather have a fellow player put their life first so they can properly take care of themselves and their loved ones. To the other 1%, get a life, a job, a significant other....stop being selfish and go volunteer at a soup kitchen or something.

So, this leaves us with increasing the size of the staff. Not an easy task as the qualifications for becoming an IMM here are incredibly high. I've ran my own mud. I've seen what TWO (heck, even one can do it) crappy staff members out of TWENTY can do to dwindle a playerbase. I firmly believe that since we also happen to have such a small playerbase, reaching into the playerbase for ANY exemplary player actually does as much harm as it does good. No matter the skill of the player/IMM, no IMM should ever have the IMM character sitting in a God Room while they run around with their own mortal character, no matter how much it may enhance the game. I'm also against IMMs having a second, lower level IMM character. I tried that once when my staff numbered a mere 5. It works okay, but *shrug* from a psychological stand point, you're stretching yourself thin eventually.

My suggestion: We find some way to build relationships with other muds. Now, before anyone jumps down my shirt and screams and cries, just think it over. It could give access to MORE staff, MORE players.....*shrug* But this outreach would have to be done by our IMM staff. Muds in general are shrinking or falling whim to the players. No offense to the players, but strong-arming isn't exactly endearing. It just shows how weak our beloved games are becoming and can alienate a staff. They WANT us to stay. WE want to stay. But creatively and constructively we must find some middle ground. Give and take, give and take. And not like the ****ing morons in Washington, D.C.

On to part B.

I will not even get into whether or not there is any form of "bias" amongst the staff. I've had many, many, many interactions with Anume over my ten years here. Some good, some bad, but I was ALWAYS treated fairly, no matter what my transgression or my achievement. I say the same as far as Zhokril is concerned. Just because I sometimes have a different view doesn't mean I'm not getting treated fairly. As long as you can trust your IMPs, you know they will keep their staff in line. They pick their staff and entrust to them their most precious gift: The Playerbase. Do too much wrong by the playerbase and you begin to destroy a mud. No IMP would put up with this.

Let's switch over to player bias. Because this exists and this is the TRUE problem amongst bias. Every time someone lets it get into their thinking they let past events involving past characters SCREW up their RP and the other persons RP. That's just us hurting ourselves. Light abuse of this is nigh unnoticed except amongst those who use AIM or MSN. If your'e using these, it's your own fault.

On the other hand, there is a phenemonon I noticed last year which I call the "My Rules" Bias. Here a player tries to use PK and a veiled methodology to force, rather than lead, by example. I once had a character that was attacked by another character prior to level 30. Said class was VERY weak against my class at that level. No skill on my part to kill said class so I fled and fled and hid and hid and each time said character kept coming back. So, after twenty minutes of this, I killed him. And sac'ed EVERY item he had. Even though it was crap. Why? I wanted to be left alone on that day. Immediately the crying about the equipment commenced. I already felt bad, but my hand was forced. Get to level 50, said character gets revenge...three kills in a row and then takes ONE thing from my corpse and reminds me of what I did to him over a month ago. This is just another type of "bias". Lead by example, not preach by example in game. Clear up the little biases like this and we can start to eliminate the larger ones. It's all OOC coming into the game through player thoughts over RP of the character.

Just a few ideas.

[The-Nameless]

THe problem as I see it stems from what people see as "being on top". Being on top for alot of people means you have crushed all resistance, and your alone at the top. I ****ing hate that. There is no on top in fl. You can be in the lead, but noone wins in FL because we have limited lives, and attention spans. This horse **** of loot anyone you kill to the point of them just logging off the moment they do get all corpse:wear all is bull. Half of you scream we need to improve X factors, the fact remains that until we as a pbase shape up, we are going to fade into nothing because thats what some of us give. Nothing. We rape the game for our own enjoyment, and care little for the other people involved. Personally I reserve full loots for the rarest of the rare. That complete ***hole who has tried to make my gaming experience hell. Even enemies. Hell the other day I killed someone who had maybe 5 pieces of gear I wanted badly. The reason I killed him was 100% RP oriented, and I left *all* his crap, even gold. Why? Because I beat him, obviously I did not need that gear, he needed it. I let him keep it so he could stay competitive, and stick around.

To prevent further ranting I will just say do unto others blah blah blah. You wanna full loot fine, but I better not see a single ****ing post from the people who perpetuate this cycle complaining about it

[Imoutgoodbye]

THe problem as I see it stems from what people see as "being on top". Being on top for alot of people means you have crushed all resistance, and your alone at the top. I ****ing hate that. There is no on top in fl. You can be in the lead, but noone wins in FL because we have limited lives, and attention spans. This horse **** of loot anyone you kill to the point of them just logging off the moment they do get all corpse:wear all is bull. Half of you scream we need to improve X factors, the fact remains that until we as a pbase shape up, we are going to fade into nothing because thats what some of us give. Nothing. We rape the game for our own enjoyment, and care little for the other people involved. Personally I reserve full loots for the rarest of the rare. That complete ***hole who has tried to make my gaming experience hell. Even enemies. Hell the other day I killed someone who had maybe 5 pieces of gear I wanted badly. The reason I killed him was 100% RP oriented, and I left *all* his crap, even gold. Why? Because I beat him, obviously I did not need that gear, he needed it. I let him keep it so he could stay competitive, and stick around.

To prevent further ranting I will just say do unto others blah blah blah. You wanna full loot fine, but I better not see a single ****ing post from the people who perpetuate this cycle complaining about it

See? Saying it on the forum is fine. It's when it leaks through someone's RP that it pisses me off. If you keep what Nameless said in mind FROM THE FORUM at the time you roll your character and vow that this character is not going to be such a jerk as to just take everything because he can, we'll slowly see things getting better amongst the players.

The perpetuation and fear of being full looted (full looted means you are severely gimped for most classes, aka you don't have a chance, log out) has caused things like LI to go into place, people logging off, The Moderate Tier (love it, but its really sad to see it had to go into play) being implemented.....

*shrug* I think it's my right to take an item or two, but I'm not going to take it all. I'll definitely not take whatever I can perceive to be their prized possession. That can just be devastating to player psyche. Especially as you slowly get stripped kill after kill of your best item, your next best item, the next best one after that....

[Enethier]

If you care to here the perspective of a noob, here one is.

What keeps me coming back to FL is the (sadly) rare spurts of fantastic RP that I have, and that I have one goal in this game that I am working towards. I haven't even gotten to 50 yet on my character, and already I am playing the "who" *look at list, see PK symbols* "quit" game. A lot of that stems from my own inexperience, as I am not that great at PK, however, I can't imagine it being any better for a lot of other players. I imagine that a lot of people log out a lot because there are:

A) People in PK range with a lot better gear.

People in PK range that are a lot better at PK.

C) People in PK range with a great deal more knowledge about the game, i.e., where to run, where to lure enemies, where to hide, etc.

Now, to make this post entirely useless, I'm going to point out the obvious. There is not much that can be done to change this. Giving handouts to newer people won't really accomplish anything but punish, in a sense, the people that have dedicated years to this game and learning it's secrets. People also shouldn't be punished for being better at PK than others. They have learned their craft, they should be able to reap the benefits. It would be like paying the guy with a Master's degree less money because he got the job over the guy with a Bachelor's. In all honesty, I can't see a real fair solution. And that's not even taking Cabal warfare into account, and from what I can tell, that needs work too.

/end useless post.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Nah, Enethier, that's normal for newbs. How you're identifying "better" gear may be subjective at this point.

*pushes you towards Warmaster* Go do that. I got about 50 times better from joining that cabal.

EDIT: Good luck with the rest of this thread. I'll try to peek in on it again tomorrow.

[The-Nameless]

Really gear is so fickle. I did a moderate and figured out there are MANY non rares that compete with rares.

Crown of might looks awesome, waterproofed barrel is better

People want spiked gauntlets? Gold encrusted kick ***

Can't find a banner? Check out a glass star.

The mainstream eq is rare is the trouble. Everyone wants a circlet of lloth. Wtf is a runed cloak? Man I can't find a ring of fire, go grab an emerald ring.

It is all subjective, but make a class like a healer/cleric, and go identify *EVERYTHING* and log it in a notepad file. You will be shocked at the stuff you overlooked pursueing what everyone else wants.

[f0xx]

And when you think what was the original subject...

[The-Nameless]

Full loots that cause people to log off and the general decline of the game because half the pbase is afraid to log on and the other half is hoarding up enough nymph hearts to survive hiroshima?

[Croyvern]

10 years.

13 cabaled characters.

2 condeaths.

1 double condeath.

2 Heralds who refused to use "herald skill"

And not one instance where I used LI.

The trouble stems from everyone believing that their character has to be the baddest mofo on the planet. I would rather PLAY in sub-elite gear than watch reruns on TV afraid to log on and lose my stuff. I personally do not believe every one of my characters needs to be George Washington. In fact, being Ben Franklin can be much more fulfilling. Something to consider.

Edit...

I haven't even gotten to 50 yet on my character, and already I am playing the "who" *look at list, see PK symbols* "quit" game. A lot of that stems from my own inexperience, as I am not that great at PK, however, I can't imagine it being any better for a lot of other players. I imagine that a lot of people log out a lot because there are:

A) People in PK range with a lot better gear.

People in PK range that are a lot better at PK.

C) People in PK range with a great deal more knowledge about the game, i.e., where to run, where to lure enemies, where to hide, etc.

I love logging in as a goodie and seeing 5-8 evils in my range. I think most people believe that they need someone they could group with to start some steller RP up. But I have found that some of my characters greatest relationships develop from RP that starts out as a skirmish between my character and another. As a new player remember, its ok to lose a fight, heck its even ok to use that loss as an RP reason to be terrified of the character who bested you. I do not believe it does you any good as a player to log out because those in your range are going to kill you. You will not get better with your main character if you are constantly rolling new alternates. Try Sticking it out, a con dead character will always be remembered. Its a win win. Learn, or make history.

[Dale]

I like to be Hitler.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I like to be Hitler.

You're not allowed to be Hitler. Everyone knows you're evil before you do.

[Demiterracotta]

I like the just fight and die attitude.

I cannot COUNT the number of PK deaths I have taken without learning anything. But I keep plugging away. (even after reviewing logs)

A victory is getting your opponent to big and nasty.