Cabal Warfare ruins RP

[jibber]

I know what a lot of you are thinking when you read the title. "No it doesn't, you just don't like it, [blah blah blah]." Well, I'm inclined to prove that it does. When it comes to warfare, I have to put RP on hold to do what the cabal requires me to do.

What I mean is, I have to kill. I can't just mercy everyone and let it be, nor can I "not" multikill if someone just keeps coming for it. When it comes to that, someone on one side deletes or requests deletion. If I did, then that would defeat the purpose of cabal warfare and I would be neglecting cabal duties, since as soon as they get up, they go for the standard again. Usually. I can generally RP while I'm in the midst of warfare (such as replying to tells, etc) but most of the time I have to throw everything away that my character is to keep my standard and uphold cabal warfare policies.

I don't have any ideas as to how we can change this. I've tried my best in game to fix it the best I can but it always falls to one, simple thing: kill cabal guard, give to altar, try to kill defender before altar dies. The altar is so weak as it is, that it's nearly pointless to even take an enemies standard unless you outnumber them... but that's beside the point.

[edit] It seems that during warfare, all there is, is banter. Always someone try to defend their actions or another judging the other through their character, while trying to act like an enemy. It's obvious.. terribly obvious, and takes away from the game. Frustration shining through a character can be very hurtful to RP, especially if it's not your character talking, and it's you talking.

I don't know where to start to help buff up RP during cabal warfare. My first thought is to do away with it completely and change the mechanics a bit. This CTF sort of warfare is a little.. bland.

Anyway, throw your ideas on the thread. I'd love to hear them.

[Ghrundor]

I kind of agree because some people can just run around without their standard ever, or just run away and hide. Doesnt exactly help in the sense to further bring the battle forward. And hiding behind cabal guards gets a little irritating sometimes, especially with that new healer room next to the entrance (makes it nearly impossible to flee in the right direction to escape).

Capture the flag is just kinda boring and doesnt bring much RP into the mix as Jibber stated. Although I have no ideas I just wanted to agree.

[Imoutgoodbye]

*shrug* I dislike the armies more than I dislike capture the flag.

However, Croyvern once said something about being able to "capture" enemy cabal members.

I say make this an option. Allow caballed characters a "capture" option instead of "mercy".

A captured character is taken to a dungeon room of the enemy cabal. There he can either sign a temporary peace treaty or be executed within the cabal.

Upon signing the peace treaty the character is treated as a ghost is treated when trying to enter the forsaken lands desert area between the Dragon's Teeth and Miruvhor for an extended period of time as it pertains to the enemy cabal. Nothing is stopping said character from defending their own cabal, but they cannot attempt to take back a standard.

Cabal warfare is flawed. Not in terms of what it is, but in terms of the assumption its best warriors always come back from the dead and are expected to throw themselves back at the enemy cabal if they're in decent shape. Take the option of actually being forced back into doing that away and I think we can see some gains for RP.

Now, it's not being forced on anyone that they have to adhere to this. Just take the "execution" you would have gotten without being captured and the original form still exists. Mouth off to the person who showed you mercy and they can come attack your cabal and force you back into defending.

Sounds like a fairly good start.

[Anume]

We've been working hard on changes to make army wf a lot more interesting. It is a very complex matter, both in creating ideas that are doable and fun and in putting it together in a matter that can be relized, is understandable to players and does not get boring too fast.

My estimation is that it will take us yet a while to stomp out the flaws and then of course it is a coding matter as well.

As to capture the flag, it is often necessary, else enemies tend to just sit around in different parts of the world, perhaps talk, but not really fight if they thing their enemy is strong or has a good chance to kill them. We are of course open to suggestions how to make it more fun. If you have ideas, put it on an idea thread, if you have a worked out concept, put it on prayer.

[f0xx]

Cabal warfare is flawed. Not in terms of what it is, but in terms of the assumption its best warriors always come back from the dead and are expected to throw themselves back at the enemy cabal if they're in decent shape. Take the option of actually being forced back into doing that away and I think we can see some gains for RP.

Sounds like a fairly good start.

As much as I dislike the whole capture and execute idea that Valek advertises, the part I quoted is something I strongly agree with.

Currently, mindless PK while in cabal is enforced by the immortals (by some quite heavily). No RP can win you cabal ranks as fast as taking down a strong enemy. While that's good, there is another side to that i.e. avoid PK and you will be demoted.

The whole trick here is to make the weaker caballed character stay online while there is a highly ranked decked enemy or multiple such.

Currently, once a strong enemy (or multiple such) take your standard you are in even worse position, because you are not only the weaker of the two but now you are without cabal powers and losing land faster. Not just that but while you are in the lands your armies are weaker too.

So we have multiple things which stack against weaker/outnumbered characters:

1. Strong characters are forced to beat on weaker ones

2. Weaker characters are forced to take a beating

3. Weaker characters lose a lot when 2 happens.

4. Equal characters are forced to keep fighting each other until either one runs out of supplies or has to log off due to a) Real life Annoyance

Once an enemy logs your neutral/good character is allowed to become a complete evil. This not only ruins RP but it conflicts it too.

Can we create a better cabal warfare system? Of course we can, but we need political will for that i.e. we need our staff to want it.

As a playerbase we are smart and creative enough to create a solution to the problem, the real problem here is, do we really want to solve the "problem"?

[edit] I've been writing this reply for a good 5 hours now (yay for being at work and having lots of it...), glad to see one of the top immortals actually post a reply that they are looking for changing the current system and accepting ideas.

[kaboomer]

Capture the flag is designed for when we have 50 players online. Back in the old days, capture the flag was a super fun adrenaline rush.

More players = more fun. There's the real problem.

[Atticus]

i agree, all have you have made very strong points on the matter.

i think cabal warfare ruined my experience.

[Kyzarius]

without a motivating force people just sit and look at their gear.

[Atticus]

- well, gear... and the location and obtaining of the best gear is elite knowledge. which the reason the same people, with different characters, always have that one piece, or if they dont have that, the have the net best thing.

This is one other thing that doesnt so much really matter to me, except when someone with uber gear, kills you and takes either what you got, or sac it- just to gimp the person for a while.

I believe we could movtiate ourselves, and by doing so, make going our and killing more than, "my standard, or your are (enemy)"

but rather, "I believe in this, and I will die trying to bring about the change desired."

I dont know- theres a ninja's view.

[Kyzarius]

- well, gear... and the location and obtaining of the best gear is elite knowledge. which the reason the same people, with different characters, always have that one piece, or if they dont have that, the have the net best thing.

This is one other thing that doesnt so much really matter to me, except when someone with uber gear, kills you and takes either what you got, or sac it- just to gimp the person for a while.

I believe we could movtiate ourselves, and by doing so, make going our and killing more than, "my standard, or your are (enemy)"

but rather, "I believe in this, and I will die trying to bring about the change desired."

I dont know- theres a ninja's view.

I personally think that looting and saccing is the lowest dirtiest meanest thing that can be done to another player, and in truth has been responsible for more loss of pbase than any other factor contributing to it.

Cabal warfare can be a different experience from character to character. the right ally, or the right enemy can really tip the scales of enjoyment immensly.

The problem is that If you do not motivate players to fight, they will choose the safer self preserving path 9/10. This results in total stagnation. With no real reason to risk yourself 50 becomes very very very boring. Yeah you can RP but after a while even that can get stale on its own.

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

The problem is that If you do not motivate players to fight' date=' they will choose the safer self preserving path 9/10. This results in total stagnation.[/quote']

Yet we face stagnation as it is, too.

[Kyzarius]

Yet we face stagnation as it is' date=' too.[/quote']

due to low numbers, when others are on...I find my play sessions quite active

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

due to low numbers' date=' when others are on...I find my play sessions quite active[/quote']

Active yes but usually little more than CTF style, which is the complaint. I agree with the OP that there needs to be more and/or differing forms of motivation.

[Ilanthas]

Greeting all,

It has been a while since I made a post. I have been thinking on this all day and may have come up with an idea for you all to mull over. How about instead of CTF, there would be X number of objects of power that each cabal could get. For instance one cabal might have five, one might have three, and one might have four and so on. There would be a max number of objects as well as a max number that each cabal could have at one time. Each of these objects could give bonus's to cabal skills. However, if a cabal has none their powers would still work but at a reduced efficiency. This way if your cabal has lets say three out of a max of five, it would not be quite as vital to rush out and get the other objects. Especially if you are facing overwhelming odds. This is just an idea for everyone to think about.

*goes back to hiding under his rock*

Happy gaming,

Ilanthas.

[f0xx]

Hey Ilanthas, nice to see you around!

I didn't understand very well your idea... how would it work and how would it help with the problems jibber and others described?

[jibber]

What an AWESOME idea. +10000000 to you.

[Mmm Coffee]

There has to be a way to negate cabal skills. Some combos are practically unkillable with their cabal powers.

Edit: I actually think any cabal should be able to take any other cabal's standard...but only the vendetta'd ones can move armies and get any cabal-benefit. So if I'm a Watcher and I have an undead Nexus to fight but our cabals are not vendetta'd, I should be able to take the nexus standard...I just won't get any army-movement or CP bonus from it. The only bonus would be your opponent loses their cabal skills.

[Kyzarius]

Active yes but usually little more than CTF style' date=' which is the complaint. I agree with the OP that there needs to be more and/or differing forms of motivation.[/quote']

60 - 70% of my time online is spent rping. The rest is pk.

[Mali]

This can be fixed by making RP a combat skill.

RP challenge character X

Character X has accepted your RP challenge!

Your RP decimates character X.

Character X's RP MASSACRES you!

Your RP LACERATES character X.

Character X's RP DOES SPEAKABLE THINGS TO YOU!!!

You feel the life leaving your body and your rp sucks.

You are dead!

[The-Nameless]

I always liked the idea of global monoliths. I dunno maybe each cabal "owning" two. And they can be taken, even when your not online. But you can reclaim them. You have an easier time reclaiming your own lost monoliths, and a harder time taking other's monoliths. Each one can give bonuses to cabal effectivity. 2 means you have normal gains, 1 means less 0 means none, 3 means imnrpoved, four so on and so on.

This way all cabals can interact on an RP level as much as a PK level. If Nexus wants to claim all monoliths, and get huge power boosts, they have to claim everyones monoliths. If Knight is allied with Trib, they just don't take trib monoliths and organize an RP oriented truce. Would be much more fluid as well, since elders are not so common you don't have to fight wars someone else started over a char who doesn't even exist anymore.

I have no idea what bonuses you may want to give. Maybe custom things tied to each monolith. Like one grants water breathing, one lets you fly for x hours a day etc etc.

[f0xx]

I always liked the idea of global monoliths. I dunno maybe each cabal "owning" two. And they can be taken, even when your not online. But you can reclaim them. You have an easier time reclaiming your own lost monoliths, and a harder time taking other's monoliths. Each one can give bonuses to cabal effectivity. 2 means you have normal gains, 1 means less 0 means none, 3 means imnrpoved, four so on and so on.

This way all cabals can interact on an RP level as much as a PK level. If Nexus wants to claim all monoliths, and get huge power boosts, they have to claim everyones monoliths. If Knight is allied with Trib, they just don't take trib monoliths and organize an RP oriented truce. Would be much more fluid as well, since elders are not so common you don't have to fight wars someone else started over a char who doesn't even exist anymore.

I have no idea what bonuses you may want to give. Maybe custom things tied to each monolith. Like one grants water breathing, one lets you fly for x hours a day etc etc.

And what exactly is the difference with the current situation?

Instead of 1 standard cabals will have 2 and the idea of capture the flag is kept, so we are back on swapping standards.

Although, I do like the idea of certain monoliths giving different effects.

[The-Nameless]

well you don't have rigid warfare where you have to have all your monoliths. You don't even have to fight to reclaim your specific monoliths, though it is easier to get them back. It was also a rough idea I tossed out on a whim.

[f0xx]

well you don't have rigid warfare where you have to have all your monoliths. You don't even have to fight to reclaim your specific monoliths' date=' though it is easier to get them back. It was also a rough idea I tossed out on a whim.[/quote']

I don't have to have all my monoliths, but I still need to have one for my cabal powers to work, right?

And how exactly would capturing/reclaiming work? I didn't see any clarifications on that.

I really like the idea about getting different bonuses from monoliths, and I think we can expand on that. How about if different areas give different bonuses? Some bigger, some smaller, different types and aspects. If you own the area then you gain the effect.

The cabal that can't conquer will get the bonuses from the areas which their allies will have and on the other hand syndi/trib/watcher will have to offer some more valuable services in order to be able to compete with the cabal that can capture areas.

This will put more emphasis on politics, RP and armies. Then we can tinker with armies and make them more active and interesting.

Just some random raw ideas...