Itelby

[ullquiora]

I tried to create a solely RP character, to work with the concept of a megalomaniac. Naturally, he took things when he saw them, but always returned them.

Unfortunately, my expectation of the staff regarding RP, and their expectation of me as a player no longer match. I've been gone too long. In the good old days, I would have been nailed with an outcasting or align change if I was thought to break RP... after due communication. Heck, I would have been happy with that, as it is just another channel to RP through. It would have been a surprise, but not necessarily a bad one for me as a player. It definitely would have been punishment for Itelby, however.

What I can't tolerate is staff punishing players by docking them around 15k+ experience, before speaking with them in any way. It is indicative of a game that has lost the "sandbox" appeal it once has held. By taking the experience, you are not punishing the character... you are punishing the player. With the significance of that, along with the fact that there are no hunting groups and certain classes find doing quest-ranking VERY difficult, I just have to leave scratching my head.

This isn't about "waaaah waaah waah" I was punished and I think I was right. This is about methodology of punishment, should it be warranted. By punishing players, and not characters, it is bound to be taken more personally. It also is a bit confusing considering, at least in my case, the character did something based on a personality disorder. I went along with it. As I previously said, if Itelby was punished after due consideration... I actually would have taken it happily (outcast evil faerie thief known to also play with demons at times) would have been an interesting path among many he could have taken.

Should I have left this in the prayer forum? No. Absolutely not. I did post there, but I feel that any potential future player this game may have might be interested in the player-punishment over character punishment this supposed RP sandbox game seems to go by.

[Deykari]

All things aside, a shame to see you go. I did like that last picture.

Dey

[Kyzarius]

who else is going to eat my flowers

[f0xx]

I was going to post something similiar to this some time ago... but then I decided meh... I would simply be called a whiner. So I dropped it.

But seeing you posting this now, I would share me thoughts too.

I believe the staff, (especially certain members of it) need to reconsider their policies towards the players. I am noticing a certain trend, where immortal punishments are directed at the player, rather than the character. Not just that, but immortal actions are influenced by who is playing the character i.e. promotions, cabal entrances and so on.

I've posted before about the different things influencing an immortal decision of different staff members. Some are very cool and easy going, others are demanding and control hungry like little girls. From this comes the different experiences players get when interacting with immortals.

Also, recently I've noticed the game become less and less newbie friendly. There are many things which make me say this, but just to mention a couple - notice the last two changes posts? They are so vaugue and unclear that it is hard for a vet player to realize what is going on. What about the new perk system? Ok, that was cool. But does anyone know what most of the new perks' benefits are? Did anyone knew that few perks were nerfed?

The game starts to feel more and more like a dictatorship, and while it actually IS such, it is not good to feel like such. Especially with the size of our PB.

If you want to discuss a certain quest/cabal skill you cannot because you are not allowed to do it in the open forum and if you try duscissing it on prayer you are either ignored, shot down or kindly told that you simply don't understand how the skill works.

Discussing changes (if you actually manage to find out what some of the changes are, by their vague descriptions) - you would be lucky to have this priviledge. I have the feeling that certain (if not many) of the changes are implied simply to satisfy certain individual(s). In the past we've had immortal commands, quest/cabal skill names mentioned in the changes announcements, now its just "crusader skill tweaked", "savant skills changed" and so on. Why? What is the point of this? I hope you guys realize the parallel you are drawing here with a government that hides their actions from the people.

Alright, felt like letting some steam off without being ignored.

[jibber]

Not sure what happened here, but I just wanted to say I'm happy with the current staff, all they do, and how they take care of things. I think that's pretty big coming from a player who has, outspoken wise, hated the staff or else seemed like the staff hated me in my past.

[Pali]

I am noticing a certain trend' date=' where immortal punishments are directed at the player, rather than the character.[/quote']

Depending on the context, I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If a player has a history of getting a qrace at 30 and deleting before 40, I have no problem with the IMMs keeping this in mind and expecting a bit more determination and work to be put into this character than the previous ones before giving this player another qrace.

[the_nightmare]

To be honest, In the past I never liked how the staff is running the mud.Simply because it is making the game MUCH MUCH more difficult for newer players.BUT I have been gone for two months, when I came back now I played a couple of days.I must say that I think the staff is more newbie friendly than ever.I got inducted before 50th.Not to mention that I saw a cabal Immortal who have left his people to run the cabal by themself.I never got ganged, I never got silly messages like "Die bitch" or etc.Even my enemies are respecting me as an enemy and never play ****y.I don't know if f0xx is right about the changes that are made because of SOMEONE.But I must say that I like EVERY single change this game had recently.The most important thing I feel glad that maybe the STAFF at last considered that the big requirements for anything is what kills this pbase.

[Liadon Xiloscient]

Back in my forum days I also led a group of people, roughly around 30 to 50 people at any one given time. Eventually people wanted a new story and moved on and the only people that remained where the "vets" as you would call them.

To cut to the chase of the story our group of people began focusing on the little things of the game. It was then our story became a chore and that "writers guild" collapsed in on itself. I went back that simply to look, they still have 30 to 50 vets and no new players and their forum by posting count per day would be "dead".

[ullquiora]

Jibber, you are a poor example of "the troublesome ones". In the years I've known you, your behavior has changed drastically IMO. You are an invaluable part of this game, and should have gotten any sort of cool stuff you wanted. I am not actually talking about getting qstuff in terms of player punishment. Let me explain.

I don't think I was clear when I said that there are two types of punishments. One is to hurt the player, one is to punish the character. As far back as I can remember, the only player punishments have been the automatic damnation from good vs good killing, a denial, and a ban. Any other punishments were directly intended for the character. The player, on the other hand, simply had to continue on the path they were and adapt to this change. This, in essence, is great as the game is more enthralling and RP based. While being turned evil and outcasting doesn't effect me really, my character's life is changed dramatically.

When I was hit for 15k experience earlier today, without warning or communication with an imm... my character himself wasn't effected IC. The loss of experience is directly targeted at me, the player. Considering the lack of players to group with, and being unable to quest rank, that actually is the second worst punishment possible to impose on me, personally. The other is denial of character.

I am trying to stress the difference between personal punishment, and character punishment in relation to the game world as a whole. I did nothing, as a player, wrong. My character might. Perhaps it is difficult for staff to see the motivation of the action, and if it was the player or the character that decided it. My suggestion would be more communication, and a less totalitarian stance on the issue. For example, I feel simply showing up and interacting with the character first would probably be more of an appropriate response. I would strongly recommend leaving the harsh words, OOC demands, and player punishments to the IMP staff. They have more experience dealing with it, and would be less likely to offend anyone by doing so.

[jibber]

I kind of agree with you here. In the past I've always been a little miffed at the fact that I -might- face player punishment if my character were to do something that I knew, as a player, was against alignment or against some other ethos/alignment issue in game.

I've been punished by past staff for this, but never this staff. Though I have been threatened with the big "you know better" kind of thing when I ask about it and ask what I can and can't do. I don't mind, really, because they made it clear I as a player would be punished (up to denial) and so would my character, but I dunno if I agree with it completely.

That said, I'm still happy with this staff.

[Anume]

The exp bonus system was implemented as a tool to reward good and punish inappropriate rp.

What Ulli does not mention, is that the same character also received at least one exp bonus for GOOD rp.

If we see something that we deem inappropriate behavior for the align / ethos of sometone, that can also lead to an exp penalty.

It is not our wish to punish a player with this, it is a hit on the fingers that is usually considered LESS of a punishment than outcasting the character for breaking ethos or align rp. Yout god frowns at your behavior, and thus punishes you (making your time till promotion in your guild longer), I think this is perfeclty ic.

I would really have prefered if Uli had not just deleted his char but rped it out. An exp penalty is not the end of the world, good rp would have gotten him an exp bonus again so that it would have pretty soon evened out. I think that your reaction here was exaggerated.

[f0xx]

Oh, and lets not forget it's not only XP you lose:

04/01/11 Proficiencies will be correctly dropped when an EXP penalty is applied now. The penalties have been made more powerful as well.

PS. I agree with everything said about jibber too, I've heard all kinds of bad things about his past from others, yet I've seen only top notch RP and PK from him.

[ullquiora]

The exp bonus system was implemented as a tool to reward good and punish inappropriate rp.

What Ulli does not mention, is that the same character also received at least one exp bonus for GOOD rp.

If we see something that we deem inappropriate behavior for the align / ethos of sometone, that can also lead to an exp penalty.

It is not our wish to punish a player with this, it is a hit on the fingers that is usually considered LESS of a punishment than outcasting the character for breaking ethos or align rp. Yout god frowns at your behavior, and thus punishes you (making your time till promotion in your guild longer), I think this is perfeclty ic.

I would really have prefered if Uli had not just deleted his char but rped it out. An exp penalty is not the end of the world, good rp would have gotten him an exp bonus again so that it would have pretty soon evened out. I think that your reaction here was exaggerated.

Please note, however, the bonus I got was for 5k. The penalty was for 15k and may have included proficiency loss. This little slap on the fingers cost me about 2-3 hours of play considering that finding a group is quite difficult and a fae thief doesn't quest well at all. We could go around and around about how deserved this was, but that isn't the point I am arguing though I don't agree with it. Also, if you expect me as a player to RP this out... I would expect the staff member involved to RP accordingly as well. Please, don't expect more from me than your staff.

Smack for 15k exp.

"Stealing from goods isn't acceptable." Erana tells you.

"*chitter*" I reply.

"Sacrifice them, now." Erana tells you.

In my characters eyes, who the heck is Erana? Certainly not the God of goodness.

Although perfectly in the rights of the staff member to say this, tact is also integral to an RP enforced mud. No player is FORCED to adhere to align standards, from what I can understand. It is a choice, and there are consequences. I believe the consequences should be for the character, and not me... so long as the choice is the characters for rp purposes. Frankly, if I was going to be hit for 15k experience and prof loss every time a staff member saw my megalomaniac/borderline fae do something questionable and didn't inquire... I would be level 1 by this next week.

I simply cannot accept that docking experience is a simple slap on the wrist and intended to hurt only the character. In my case, especially since the character never had immortal interaction of any kind and was making an effort for outstanding roleplay.

[Atticus]

your char kept mr from app'n for denial- and i personally think targerting a player for on OOC punishment. when all we hear is NEVER go OOC is hypocritical, but this isnt a stab at the staff- you guys are cool, and keep things as even as possible. I think we have to realize that in RL the imms are just like us- fallible. IC- they are all powerful, but in the back of my head while playing I know they are just another nred behind the keyboard.

love you guys,

atticus

[The-Nameless]

Ok. So your a goodie. Who robbed a goodie, and brought it here to complain about the mechanics you knew existed biting you in the ***? I mean ****. Not long ago you where promoting the game, now quite often your posts are very negative, and detrimental to the game. Someone may stumble on forums, and see X complaints over stupid stuff like this. No offense but if all you got was a 15k penalty for stealing from a good as a good, you got off light. I did it as a newbie (like 2 months into fl ) and was outcast, lost pry, steal, and pilfer. So maybe in this particular fiery crash it was pilot error, not mechanical problems.

[Imoutgoodbye]

*rubs chin thoughtfully*

My personal take on this:

Goods shouldn't steal from goods. Definitely OUTCAST worthy. This just solely based on the fact that the character has weakened another lightwalker. Sylp was another faerie thief I would have LOVED to see outcasted. He actually would blackjack my good aligned ogre berserker JUST to plant that damn chef's hat on my head. But that's not here or now.

Now, the experience "bonus" system is a new tool for the staff. The carrot or the hammer. Align is incredibly restrictive. Unless you're lawful, you're going to get some leeway in how you present your character in terms of ethos.

Like in AD&D, a DM could award for good RP. He could also STOP you from completely gaining XP if he thought you weren't properly RPing your align. You won't find that rule in any other D&D book but the second edition AD&D version.

With all this being said, is it really that bad that a 15k penalty that can be regained within an hour and CAN be regained immediately (at player discretion) and the proficiency can be regained (a nice punishment tool for those obsessed with mastering everything) because it's usually only a point or two. OUTCAST usually means you flat out LOSE a skill.

As for the staff treating players/characters separate? I haven't seen it yet. Had something happen to me during RP a few weeks ago I didn't like, but, hey, I was warned. I've also had four undead. With my deletion rate at 50, this wouldn't be possible if the staff based the decision solely on the fact it's me behind the character.

At any rate, the use of XP to punish is not that bad of a thing from my view. There are far worse things that can happen. Player and character aren't that separate. To motivate the character you have to understand something about the player to take it to the next level of gratification. That's how the RP tool came into being. That said, it has another side, especially with the proficiencies representing the PK aspect of the game. The negative is a little darker from a RP'ers perspective. But you gotta roll with it.

You know you're doing something right when you get a "positive" reaction to the benefits and a "negative" reaction to the punishments.

Thumbs up for RP hurting.

[jibber]

Wait, you stole from a goodie? Meh. If I was a part of the current staff, I would have brought you before the emporium of light, and outcasted you while switched into a bright shiny light depicting your god.

But seriously. You stole from a goodie, as a goodie? I'm surprised you weren't outcasted and had all your thievery skills taken away. Props to the IMM who actually gave you a chance to RP it out. (Though, I do agree Erana could have handled it differently. It doesn't mean she handled it wrong, either.)

[ullquiora]

Ok. So your a goodie. Who robbed a goodie, and brought it here to complain about the mechanics you knew existed biting you in the ***?

As I previously stated, I had no idea those types of mechanics existed. I expected that should an immortal have an issue, they would present themself in a ways as for me to communicate with them. It is quite possible it was a misunderstanding on their part, but unfortunately they flexed their new muscles a little too hard and too quickly.

I mean ****. Not long ago you where promoting the game, now quite often your posts are very negative, and detrimental to the game. Someone may stumble on forums, and see X complaints over stupid stuff like this.

As a person, I consider myself neutral. I don't like something, I talk about it. I like something, I talk about it. Yes, I did try pretty hard to promote this site. Yes, I do not agree with something that happened and I've found public pressure to fix it a bit more effective than to put it privately... to be dismissed or ignored.

No offense

After having a long history of attacking people openly, you really should stop starting sentences like this.

but if all you got was a 15k penalty for stealing from a good as a good, you got off light. I did it as a newbie (like 2 months into fl ) and was outcast, lost pry, steal, and pilfer. So maybe in this particular fiery crash it was pilot error, not mechanical problems.

I also do not feel taking those skills from you might have been an effective way to indulge the RP atmosphere supposedly prevalent here. I must also admit that I don't know the situation surrounding your experience, much like you are completely ignorant to the actual events surrounding mine. Suffice to say, the staff is different now and I don't really know everything you did to warrant such extreme actions.

Hear-say is a funny thing, in that I could also say that I had a neutral monk in conclave last week that dry humped Zhokril and didn't lose a single skill. Both your argument and mine right now is just at legitimate as neither are verifiable or expounded upon.

[Anume]

Just to clarify:

- if a char is below level 50 exp bonus / penalty is exp.

- if a char is level 50 exp bonus / penalty is proficiency gain / loose varying from 1 to 4 points.

It's not as if a skill would go back to 0 if you get an exp penalty as a level 50.

I think in Itelby's case there are two very legit povs:

- from a staff perspective he broke rp as he stole from another good (as staff we do not know you had planned to return it eventually, you had not done so till the player had logged off after all)

- from Itelby's pov (cannot speak, so hard to meet the other guy) you may have planned to rescue his things for him, however as it worked out you hadn't run into him.

From simply the facts here, I think the exp penalty was very legit to apply. As I said earlier, it is usually easy to reclaim the exp through good rp.

I don't really think this should have been brought here in the first place, so I'll end the discussion here. I have seen very good things from Itelby rp wise, he was a funny little chap I enjoyed rping with.