The Kill Team

[Pali]

This story in Rolling Stone I found, while unsurprising, still quite disturbing. It goes into detail regarding the much-higher-than-admitted-number of US troops who view killing Afghan civilians as sport. It is not a pleasant read, but it is an interesting one... as are the release of numerous photos and videos also posted at the above link that had been thus-far censored by the Pentagon.

[Mali]

Absolutely terrible. What a slideshow... I dare anyone to look at them and defend whats happening in Afghanistan.

[mmajunkie]

A small group of idiots should not be reason to stereotype our entire armed forces or their mission.

[Streetfighter]

Yeah, you will always have a group of morons where ever people gather.

Its just a shame that our military isn't immune to this disease.

[Mali]

No one is stereotyping the armed forces.

The article explores a group of soldiers committing war crimes in Afghanistan, which is obviously an isolated incident, concerning only a few soldiers.

Not like there have been any other reports of US soldiers raping or killing during this conflict.

Not like it has happened before during other wars.

Not a systemic problem at all.

Because trophy killing a 15 yr old boy, or raping and killing a 14 year old girl, should not reflect on our armed forces, but rather just the individuals that have been identified and punished.

Not like their superiors knew about it. Not like the U.S government tried to censor it.

Not like we should take responsibility for senseless waste of human lives.

(end sarcasm)

If you think this is an isolated incident, you need to open your eyes, man. Acts committed while in uniform and in service can and do and should reflect on the armed forces. Who owns the uniforms, who owns the guns, who gave them vehicles and orders? Who flew them over there? If you downward compress this issue too much, you overlook the context of the situation and create an environment for such atrocities to repeat themselves.

This has nothing to do with patriotism or political affiliation... but rather everything to do with basic human values that should be upheld even in times of war, and a fundamental failure of leadership during the crises.

[Pali]

A small group of idiots should not be reason to stereotype our entire armed forces

First off, if you think that "a small group of idiots (quietly doing bad things)" is an accurate depiction of how things are playing out, I don't imagine that you actually read the article.

Second, I agree with you (regarding the armed forces - the mission's another discussion) - I have little doubt that, on the whole, our military is composed of good, honorable people that would be horrified to think that these kinds of actions are being performed by people that wear the same uniform.

The problem here is not that American soldiers are bad people - I don't think that this is an accurate generalization at all. The problem here is simply what war does to people - it dehumanizes other people in their (edit: rather, in OUR) eyes. This, I think, is an absolutely beautiful blog post by P.Z. Myers that does a much more emotional job than I think myself capable of reminding us what war really is about: killing other human beings (edit: the blog post itself is mostly a reaction to Afghan mobs storming a UN building and killing a dozen people over the burning of a Qu'ran in Florida, but I still think it relevant - you won't enjoy reading it, but it is very much worth reading nonetheless). The people who fight in war are forced, by necessity, to ignore a great deal of the humanity of those they are fighting - I don't imagine that there are many other ways to come to grips with having a job that requires you to be willing to terminate human lives. It is very important that we remember that this is part of the cost of going to war - part of our own humanity, part of our empathy for other human beings, must be sacrificed if we are going to sanction the killing of other human beings, and a much greater price is going to be paid by those we send to do that killing than by those of us staying behind.

I'd be willing to bet that, were I to run into one of the guys responsible for these horrendous acts at the bar, we'd probably get along just fine. That's the problem - that good people, in war, are turned into monsters.

EDIT: There's a great bit early on in Battlestar: Galactica, where Adama explains to Roslin why the military and the police are kept separate: the military is trained to destroy the enemy, whereas the police are trained to protect the people. When the military serves as the police, the people often become the enemy. In many ways, we have our military serving as a police force in Afghanistan (over civilians that barely tolerate our presence and often turn against our soldiers violently at the drop of a hat, I might add) - and I think things like kill squads and rapes are part of the outcome of this. US policies are not without blame in these events.

EDIT 2: The irony here? I don't consider myself a pacifist in any meaningful way - there are absolutely wars that I think were worth fighting (many wars around the world for independence and self-governance, WW2, etc.). But I think that it is incredibly important that I remind myself that even for these wars, even for wars that I view as completely justified, there is a great human cost - not just in terms of how many lives are snuffed out, or how many people return as amputees or suffering from PTSD, but in the simple fact that I am agreeing with that idea that, in this instance, it is acceptable for this person to be killed. Part of my empathy for other human beings, part of what most people would call my humanity, goes away every time I make that judgment... and I think it very important that I remember that.

[f0xx]

Good posts Ali's.

[Pali]

Good posts Ali's.

...huh?

[mmajunkie]

I never accused anyone of stereotyping or made any accusations about this article. Put your "i want to argue with someone" switch into OFF mode.

I just wanted to make a statement before anyone started badmouthing our armed forces because of this article. My dad served 25 years in the Marine Corps and I do not like his reputation being tarnished because of BS like what they did.

[Kazimer]

M(ali) and P(ali) is what he meant... I agree, well said...

[Mali]

MMAjunkie, I mean no disrespect to your father. I had mistaken your first post as a knee-jerk 'highlighting atrocities means you are un-american' reaction which is typical here in the south.

On the contrary, I too realize that many soldiers are good men. But as Pali pointed out, war does things to you, and the people coming back from war are often not the people we sent over there.

It is entirely consistent to simultaneously support the soldiers AND cry out against such atrocities as this. In fact, a pro-soldier attitude demands rooting out such individuals as Cpl. Morlock.

That said, it appears the approach of the US government is to cover up such issues and treat them as internal problems. We, the people, are paying for this war, and we deserve to know what is happening and have every right to expect justice when things go wrong. The citizens of Afghanistan expect justice, too, but they are not getting it.

When children and innocent people have been killed for no other reason than their skin color, and Morlock gets away with a 24 year prison sentence, injustice is done. He acted as part of a unit, yet the authorities have scapegoated him alone... and even in doing so let him off rather easy.

This is reminiscent of what happened with William Calley, who took the blame for the My Lai massacres in Vietnam. The issue was compressed to the individual level, and he took the blame for his unit - even then only serving three years time under house arrest for the senseless killing of women, children, and old men in war.

That is why, despite my tendency to look favorably upon US soldiers, we must acknowledge that this is more than a few bad apples in the bunch.This is a is a historic problem in the military that has yet to be taken seriously by the US government. It is one that will repeat itself again and again until we speak out and face the issue head on. I, for one, will not stand for such abuses in MY countries armed services.

[mmajunkie]

I agree with them too, something needs to be done. But the problem is NOT with our armed forces in general, as Pali mentioned, War can turn even good men into animals. These are good men and women out there - granted, there are sure to be a few bad eggs, but they are not the entire makeup. IMO, It is a problem of our armed forces not being properly managed, from within their own ranks to the government committees elected to oversee them.

I agree it should not be swept under the rug and I agree that in the spirit of true patriotism (and the spirit of a true warrior) you would want to weed out anything that dishonors you, your country, and your military.

A very dear friend to me lived through his father (who was also a friend of mine) commit suicide on his return from Iraq. He was an Officer in the Marine Corps and had ordered a unit of his men to go and find road-mines and disarm them. They were trained for this as they were an EOD unit (explosive ordinance disposal) some men were ambushed and got killed. My friend's father blamed himself for this, saying he deserved to die, he deserved Hell. He wrote in a letter that he could not even stand to look at himself in the mirror, it made him sick to his stomach. He shot himself in the head leaving behind two sons, a wife, and some grandchildren.

His legacy is **** on by incidents like this and made even more tarnished by the government he was sworn to protect covering up incidents like this and sentencing ONE of the many to 24 years when good men like my friends father ended up with Death because of the same crippling reasons (PTSD or any other psycho-altering issue when dealing with War)

[f0xx]

M(ali) and P(ali) is what he meant... I agree' date=' well said...[/quote']

Good to have someone translate to the simple minded

[Mali]

IMO, It is a problem of our armed forces not being properly managed, from within their own ranks to the government committees elected to oversee them.

I would agree with this, and believe it reflects a fundamental flaw in the structure of military leadership that has undermined the values and mission of the organization.

[mmajunkie]

Politicians managing armed forces has always had a funny smell to it.

[Pali]

Good to have someone translate to the simple minded

No, just the drunk.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Let me share something about Marine Boot Camp in California. I've had six friends in the Marines.

At Boot Camp, right here in the U.S., on that base there are murders and drug selling. Who cares? Who's going to miss one more immigrant or one more idiot from our society? Because the majority of people who enlist in the military do not do well on tests or in school. The military promises to take care of these people. They do not. That's why the infantry is the largest unit in the military. ANYONE can get into the military. It's not difficult. It's pathetic the way the screening gets done. Because the military doesn't care.

Okay, I'm done ranting. The only purpose to the rant is to point that, in fact, there are issues within the ranks within the boot camps, within the structure LONG before they go overseas. These guys are even told to forget about their wives and girlfriends because women are unfaithful and probably already in bed with another man. *kicks the Pentagon* Bunch of freakin' idiot psychoanalysts. Get a soul!

[Atebos]

Ahhh... BSG is my favorite TV show to look to for ethical examples.

But to throw my two cents:

War is a terrible but necessary affair. The actions by those men as prompted by Pali cannot be excused for anything but immorality. And with heavy heart I pray for such injustices to be prevented.

BUT, it is with measured frankness that I am relieved to know that the true horrors of war are not upon my country man's doorstep and is able to live a relatively peaceful, Democratic, and FREE life.

@valek Be careful what you post. Not everyone can get a job in the military. My uncle was denied service in the navy and marines for not passing the intelligence exams. He then was denied from the army for being too skinny... so. And if you are discharged from the military you may also be denied future employment to the subcontractors: McDonalds anyone?

[mmajunkie]

Let me share something about Marine Boot Camp in California. I've had six friends in the Marines.

At Boot Camp, right here in the U.S., on that base there are murders and drug selling. Who cares? Who's going to miss one more immigrant or one more idiot from our society? Because the majority of people who enlist in the military do not do well on tests or in school. The military promises to take care of these people. They do not. That's why the infantry is the largest unit in the military. ANYONE can get into the military. It's not difficult. It's pathetic the way the screening gets done. Because the military doesn't care.

Okay, I'm done ranting. The only purpose to the rant is to point that, in fact, there are issues within the ranks within the boot camps, within the structure LONG before they go overseas. These guys are even told to forget about their wives and girlfriends because women are unfaithful and probably already in bed with another man. *kicks the Pentagon* Bunch of freakin' idiot psychoanalysts. Get a soul!

That is not true. I was denied entrance into the military in 2004 and 2006. I have a juvenile record. I scored a 95 on the ASVAB, I had character recommendations from retired military E7/8s. I tried the Army and the Marine Corps.

[Pali]

BUT' date=' it is with measured frankness that I am relieved to know that the true horrors of war are not upon my country man's doorstep and is able to live a relatively peaceful, Democratic, and FREE life.[/quote']

Personally, I've never bought into the "we're fighting them over there rather than fighting them over here" line for the War on Terror. And while we Americans may be here living our relatively peaceful lives, Afghan civilians are denied the same pleasure.

[Mali]

I would vote for a president with an isolationist philosophy that is focused on inner growth, the economy, environment and education, rather than messing about in other countries because of their religion and resources.

[mmajunkie]

I concur.

[Trick]

Bunch of stuff...

Your friends went through boot camp. So that means you did too? Listen, the military has a short amount of time to turn a lot of people into the type of person that can handle the stress of a military life. The military has a strict enlistment program, not everyone can join and the people that DO get in are tested rigorously through multiple stages of basic and their schools. Whether it be the Air Force's technical school or the Army's AOS(area of specialization).

Also keep in mind that people that are affected this dramatically and behave like this are not that way from the start in most cases. Through warfare comes stress. I have been deployed several times, I have watched close friends fall apart. Seen my closest friends take their own life due to the stress involved in war. I am a firefighter with the Air Force. I've been to cushy deployments such as Bahrain(pre and post riots) and I've also been to places such as Iraq and Afghanistan, for a lot of people these changes aren't a choice. For the majority of people the deaths of troops are just a number and something that doesn't affect them directly and that is not your fault. You're not WITH them 24/7. You don't breath, eat, and live with them. You can't understand.

The military has screening pre and post deployment that checks your brain and any neurological changes that may have occurred. Trust me, its 8-10 hours of a pain in the ***, but its necessary. The programs are there and you are forced to do them. I agree that our troops need more attention, but DURING the deployment. That is where we are going wrong, troops need to be tested mid deployment.

[Imoutgoodbye]

*cough* You'll have to excuse my debasement of the military. I also did not get in, but for physical reasons.

However, that does not excuse some of the BS that goes on inside those boot camps and some of the things they do to those young mens minds.

[mmajunkie]

To build a man you must first break the boy.