The Kill Team

[Atebos]

Personally' date=' I've never bought into the "we're fighting them over there rather than fighting them over here" line for the War on Terror. And while we Americans may be here living our relatively peaceful lives, Afghan civilians are denied the same pleasure.[/quote']

Pali, I admire most of your opinions and the staunchness with which you liberally express your freedom of speech. I am glad you agree that Afghan civilians deserve to be given the same chance at a Democratic way of life. The next step is to support our soldiers who bear the burden of trying to bring a terrorist/murderer-free lifestyle to them

[Atebos]

*cough* You'll have to excuse my debasement of the military. I also did not get in, but for physical reasons.

However, that does not excuse some of the BS that goes on inside those boot camps and some of the things they do to those young mens minds.

The Spartans were the elite of western civilization for good reason. Ever read about the training methods they used?

Valek, men who live their lives as free civilians cannot be used in a system that relies heavily on discipline and order. Can you imagine if the soldiers who found Hussein decided to disobey orders and shoot him? Joe Smith from the ACME broker firm is hardly going to just start listening and obeying the orders of another man.

[Imoutgoodbye]

*shrug* I shouldn't have gotten involved in this thread. To be honest, I didn't read it all, didn't read Pali's article, just decided to enter the parlor of a conversation that began before I arrived and will continue long after I am gone.

I'm too stressed to add something to my list that has little to do with me right now. Getting prepared to move and hopefully dodge a proverbial bullet. Something I'm not talking about, but if I pull this off, I will not only have a new job, but be better able to take care of my family and spend more time with them, which is what makes me happy. And on that happy note, I bow out of this thread.

[Pali]

Pali' date=' I admire most of your opinions and the staunchness with which you liberally express your freedom of speech. I am glad you agree that Afghan civilians deserve to be given the same chance at a Democratic way of life. The next step is to support our soldiers who bear the burden of trying to bring a terrorist/murderer-free lifestyle to them[/quote']

Democracy is not a commodity we can export. Nor can we attempt to fight terrorism by invading countries, toppling governments, and spending decades rebuilding them (edit: practical reasons aside, as we've seen in both Iraq and Afghanistan, when we try doing this it creates MORE terrorism, not less, and more people die than probably would have if we'd not responded to 9/11 at all). And our country, frankly, cares very little about bringing a murderer-free lifestyle to the unfortunate people of the world - it's a lovely excuse when doing so coincides with our interests, but when people that we don't care about are being slaughtered (edit: I should rephrase this to "when people who aren't sitting on top of resources we want to pay them pennies to extract and send to us are being slaughtered"), we turn a blind eye or say how regrettable it is but we just can't afford to get involved. Personally, I'm tired of the BS.

EDIT: Also... this is not intended personally at all, Atebos, but I really hate the "support the soldiers!" type of mantra. First off, it's incredibly rare that I meet anyone who doesn't say they support American soldiers. Second, we "support the soldiers" very pathetically despite all these cries to support them, because we refuse to spend the money needed to equip them for maximum survivability in battle and we also don't do a very good job of taking care of them afterwards. Instead we buy bumper stickers and fly a flag off the porch and tell ourselves we're doing our part.

EDIT 2: Spartan society placed little to no value on individual life, except in how that life could benefit Sparta. This is not an ethos we want to be emulating, regardless of it's disciplinary effectiveness.

[f0xx]

Atebos, are you comparing a nowadays' country to Sparta?

I can't believe that...

[Atebos]

@f0xx I wouldn't dare compare the Spartan mindset with America, rather it is more comparable to say - Israel. The preservation of Sparta as a country against its economic powerhouse/adversary Athens was based primarily upon the Spartan civilians' obligation to serve in its army - which is similar (if I may so generalize) to the position in which Israeli citizens find themselves with when they must serve in the Israeli military for a practical reason: ie. Hezbollah knocking on their doorstep with the UN silently twiddling its thumbs.

@Pali I agree with you that the mantra is quite overly used. As a matter of opinion it would seem that people are willing to support their military so long as they themselves aren't subject to the harsh realities the job entails.

I am curious though Pali, have you ever served in the military in any form? Soldiers are not encouraged to express their own freedom, instead sacrificing such liberties to their superior who takes orders from political "savants" who for the most part know very little besides how to win polls and elections.

[Pali]

No, I've never served in the military (unless you want to count a few months in the Civil Air Patrol when I was 13). I'm well aware that soldiers aren't encouraged to express their own freedoms - that's why I won't join. As you mentioned earlier, I'm a big fan of my freedoms.

[Grim_Reefer]

Cancer happens when the communication between cells is broken down and the rebel cells spread to kill the host. Poor earth.

[Pali]

Actually, cancer happens when the genes within the cells regulating cell reproduction break down and cause abnormally fast cell growth - it's not a matter of cells communicating with each other incorrectly.

[mmajunkie]

Breakdown of cell communication CAN cause cancer.

stop arguing just to argue.

[Pali]

...from Wikipedia: "Cell division is a physiological process that occurs in almost all tissues and under many circumstances. Under normal circumstances, the balance between proliferation and programmed cell death, usually in the form of apoptosis, is maintained by tightly regulating both processes to ensure the integrity of organs and tissues. Mutations in DNA that lead to cancer (only certain mutations can lead to cancer and the majority of potential mutations will have no bearing) disrupt these orderly processes by disrupting the programming regulating the processes.

Carcinogenesis is caused by this mutation of the genetic material of normal cells, which upsets the normal balance between proliferation and cell death."

Also, regarding cellular division: "Cells stop dividing because the telomeres, protective bits of DNA on the end of a chromosome required for replication, shorten with each copy, eventually being consumed, as described in the article on telomere shortening. Cancer cells, on the other hand, are not thought to degrade in this way, if at all. An enzyme called telomerase, present in large quantities in cancerous cells, rebuilds the telomeres, allowing division to continue indefinitely."

I am not finding anything to support the claim that cancer is caused by failures of cellular communication, except in the small subset of cases where the cancer is hormonally caused (and this is really not "cellular communication" in the sense of individual cells interacting directly).

Now do me a favor and stop telling me what subjects I am and am not allowed to make posts regarding, and stop telling me what I am doing when I know damned well that I'm NOT doing it in the sense that you're implying.

[mmajunkie]

Just because God gave you Google doesn't make you an expert on everything. (PS. You are being trolled so hard)

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/begin/cells/badcom/

"Often, cancer begins when a cell gains the ability to grow and divide even in the absence of a signal. Ordinarily this unregulated growth triggers a signal for self-destruction. But when the cell also loses the ability to respond to death signals, it divides out of control, forming a tumor. Later cell communication events cause blood vessels to grow into the tumor, enabling it to grow larger. Additional signals allow the cancer to spread to other parts of the body."

maintained by tightly regulating both processes to ensure the integrity of organs and tissues. Mutations in DNA that lead to cancer (only certain mutations can lead to cancer and the majority of potential mutations will have no bearing) disrupt these orderly processes by disrupting the programming regulating the processes.

So mutations that cause the breakdown of the process regulation (i.e communication) . Causing that communication to fail then leads to abnormal cell growth - cancer.

[mmajunkie]

Just sayin.

[Mali]

Stay on topic, or else!

[Pali]

Um... I did reference in my post that hormonal causes do play a role in a percentage of cancer cases. The site you're linking to seems to define "cell communication" in a sense that I'm not entirely comfortable with... I view hormonal influences on cellular activity more as an environmental interaction, as "cell communication" seems to imply more direct interactions such as neurons communicating through synapses. But then, since I'm not a biologist, my opinion on the subject doesn't matter all that much.

And imaginary beings had nothing to do with Google's creation.

[Twinblades713]

\

And imaginary beings had nothing to do with Google's creation.

Why so serious? >:}

[Pali]

...I thought the wink made it fairly un-serious. It was meant light-heartedly.

[Twinblades713]

I just try to make up reasons to drop Joker quotes. D:

[mmajunkie]

Because Pali likes to ruin everyones fun by arguing just to argue.

[Pali]

I just try to make up reasons to drop Joker quotes. D:

You know, I actually thought about that about 30 seconds after my post. I woke up 20 minutes ago, my mind's still a little foggy.

Manboobs, you should look up the story about the pot and the kettle.

[mmajunkie]

But then, since I'm not a biologist, my opinion on the subject doesn't matter all that much.

This should be your new signature after every post you make where no one was trying to be serious or definitive, but you try to come in and start some argument or correcting people or just showing off your google prowess. Just swap out "biologist" for whatever the current topic seems to be. :-)

And find me more than 1 or 2 threads (I can link countless ones where you've done this) where I have gone off trying to correct someone about a topic that they randomly touched on and weren't trying to be informative about at all....THEN I'll read your pot and kettle story. Grim was trying to be funny and make a joke, but then because he (in your opinion) did not reference the joke properly in advanced biological terms....you have to come in and start flexing your google-muscle.

[jibber]

Um... I did reference in my post that hormonal causes do play a role in a percentage of cancer cases. The site you're linking to seems to define "cell communication" in a sense that I'm not entirely comfortable with... I view hormonal influences on cellular activity more as an environmental interaction, as "cell communication" seems to imply more direct interactions such as neurons communicating through synapses. But then, since I'm not a biologist, my opinion on the subject doesn't matter all that much.

And imaginary beings had nothing to do with Google's creation.

Shoulda just said that from the beginning. I've read through the whole thread about people talking about what's fact and what isn't.. not what people WANT to believe and what people DON'T WANT to believe through internet searching, and only choosing the sites that best improve your argument against the other person.

So then, everyone's right, no one's wrong. Just because you don't like how something is interpreted doesn't mean it shouldn't play into how something else is interpreted. Then again, I think you'd be an awesome debatist, Pali, if you went national of course.

[Pali]

Mma, I did not Google anything for my response to Grim's post. I looked up information after you posted to double-check my understanding of the subject. Meanwhile, you are making post after post across numerous threads which seem to have little purpose beyond attempting to annoy me. I do not do that to anyone.

Jibber, if you'd like me to expand on why I think framing cancer as an issue of cellular miscommunication is misleading (beyond that hormonal influences only seem to play a causal role in a minority of cancers), I'd be happy to do so. I actually do think that it is a worthwhile distinction.

[mmajunkie]

Just defending the helpless from your intellectual battery. <3

[Pali]

Just defending the helpless from your intellectual battery. <3

...well, this is Grim we're talking about, so fair point.