Imoutgoodbye Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Tossing out a theory: What if it's our society in general that's causing the decline amongst our military soldiers? Definitely thinking along the lines of Milgram/Skinner/Zimbardo here. Think that society as a whole is trying to implement autonomous and critical thinking in our youth. But we don't reflect the reality in the educational system, i.e. we talk about sex ed, we don't show contraceptives or pictures of STD's, generally. Now, suppose they go to boot camp and then they're off to war. They face the reality of everything, including their own mortality and they happen to be in a new social situation with people they have to rely on to live. A select few begin to encourage a new way of thinking and it takes hold. From here we go back to the authority figures. Based on what they learned in the U.S. educational system, they have greater ability to rebel. I know this probably would be better in a different thread and there are TWO major factors I have not put into this discussion. If it so pleases anyone, you may name them, but it creates a much larger discussion. Just some thoughts, logos over ethos today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Meanwhile' date=' you are making post after post across numerous threads which seem to have little purpose beyond attempting to annoy me. I do not do that to anyone.[/quote'] I... could argue that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Twendrist Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 From here we go back to the authority figures. Based on what they learned in the U.S. educational system, they have greater ability to rebel. Milgram proved (or at least as close as one could in a science like psychology) the opposite with his experiments. 50 percent of the trials resulted in the subject going all the way with the shock treatment merely because an authority figure told them to, with no fear of punishment or failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Milgram proved (or at least as close as one could in a science like psychology) the opposite with his experiments. 50 percent of the trials resulted in the subject going all the way with the shock treatment merely because an authority figure told them to' date=' with no fear of punishment or failure.[/quote'] Expand beyond Milgram's experiment into real life, a setting that is not controlled. Also note the time of Milgram's experiments. I agree that today the same experiment would render similar results. But again I must note the controlled environment. Also note variations of Milgram's test and what happens when the tester in the white coat is not present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted April 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 What if it's our society in general that's causing the decline amongst our military soldiers? Are you sure this actually represents a decline in the quality of our soldiers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmajunkie Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 I certainly do. John-Q Gangsta wannabe from high school who can't speak proper english or tell me what the square root of 9 is, beats up little kids, sells drugs and smokes pot with his baby brother...has no moral or ethical backgruond....you want these kids guarding our freedoms? Combine that with the cake-walk they are turning boot camp into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Are you sure this actually represents a decline in the quality of our soldiers? That's not the decline. I'm working towards the "mob mentality" that's taking hold, not just of the grunts, but the officers and NCO's. The stress of being deployed so often and for so long may be taking down any military training and they're reverting to creating a society of their own over there, a world separate from the bases and training they've received in America. In this society they may be trying to recreate their own civilian world and keeping what they enjoyed most about being a civilian: Freedom and Autonomy. Combine this with the fact they're in a war zone with weapons to enforce whatever laws/fun they come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted April 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 That's not the decline. I'm working towards the "mob mentality" that's taking hold' date=' not just of the grunts, but the officers and NCO's. The stress of being deployed so often and for so long may be taking down any military training and they're reverting to creating a society of their own over there, a world separate from the bases and training they've received in America. In this society they may be trying to recreate their own civilian world and keeping what they enjoyed most about being a civilian: Freedom and Autonomy. Combine this with the fact they're in a war zone with weapons to enforce whatever laws/fun they come up with.[/quote'] Are you basing this analysis off of actual reports of how things are going over there, or is it speculation? I ask because I don't know enough about the current situation with the troops to make this kind of a judgment. The reason I asked if you think there's actually a decline in the quality of our soldiers is simple: these kinds of things have happened in pretty much every war throughout history. I agree that the current wars have their own situations that make it probably easier and more likely for these kinds of atrocities to be committed (constant danger even in supposedly calm circumstances, difficulty in determining the difference between a civilian and an insurgent/militant, etc.)... but that's a matter of how the war is being fought, rather than the social situation back here in the States influencing the quality of military applicants. EDIT: A bit of investigation isn't finding anything to support the notion that US troops come disproportionally from poor or uneducated backgrounds... a 2005 study found a pretty even spread across economic backgrounds of recruits (a bit higher on the poorer ends, but not as much as I expected), and a 2003 analysis found the percentage of troops with a high school diploma is significantly higher than in the general population (98% of enlistees compared to 75% of the general population). Both are referenced in a 2005 article by the Heritage Foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 It's speculation based on rogue cells that, as you point out, happen frequently throughout the course of history. Trying to present a hypothesis that's psychologically founded in variations of Millgram's tests and other factors of social psychology. Basically I'm just testing out ideas to see what everyone else thinks or knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim_Reefer Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 Hi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmajunkie Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 ohai. Come here often big fella? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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