Firearms for self defense poll

[-Totenkopf-]

...Redneck americans...

Honestly, I think its this sort of mindset which breeds alot of the violence.

We don't have shiat load of home invasions and other various stuff like that and it isn't because we all carry around guns, infact, very few people have guns. Guns are well regulated and probably alot harder to obtain then over there.

This difficulty to obtain drives prices on the 'black market' for those shady people who would actually use a weapon for malicous intent so petty crims cant afford to carry around a 'piece'.

Higher level crims with alot of money behind them, well, they are always going to have this sort of weapons, but they are also not the type of people to go around popping random strangers, so go figure.

Your easy access to firearms has bred this problem, IMHO. Otherwise, I see no reason why your country wouldn't be more like Australia.

Using it as a reason to carry arms is a viscious circle, so i cant getting it anyway better for you. What are you going to do? Your neighbour gets a semi auto, so you get an auto, so he gets a RPG, so you get a nuke...

Where does it end..

[KRins]

Where does it end..

Shotguns generally... people don't stroll around in trauma plates and kevlar too often.

I'd agree guns are too easy to obtain in the US. I mean... they market pink pistols to the 20 something female crowd. I know 2 girls who I wouldn't trust with a sharp pencil much less a firearm... the government disagrees with me however. On the other hand, I am roughly 10 minutes from the nearest police station. You could kill me and my whole family 10 times over in that time frame. We also have a variety of predatory animals that seem to have a taste for local pets, despite the fact that there are all kinds of laws preventing me from doing anything to gators which pose the scariest threat in my mind around here.

You've gotta remember that gun owners aren't just sitting in their rocking chair on the front porch drawing down on whoever shows up in the driveway. All gun owners I know understand the difference between misunderstanding, lost driver, someone asking directions, etc. and a home invader. As I said above... it boils right down to how the person trespassing (accidentally or otherwise) acts. If the person rings the doorbell or knocks, I'm not even going to consider unlocking the cabinet, digging out some shells, etc. If the person is creeping through the house at 4:30 in the morning, I probably will unlock the cabinet, etc. Still, I'm not going to just start firing at random... You'll know I'm there, I will make clear instructions as to what I would like you to do (in both english and spanish...because I'm just thoughtful like that), and I essentially will let you decide how that particular encounter is going to end. Beyond that, I have personally resolved long ago that unless random home invader is seconds from harming a member of my family to aim for the least fatal area possible. I can't promise you will live with buckshot in your leg, but you have a much better chance than in your chest. Guns, like computers, are tools. Used responsibly, they are great. Used irresponsibly, people get hurt and you go to prison. It's all about the operator.

[Atticus]

Carry a Katana where ever I go, and a couple envenomed shuriken just in case.

[Kyzarius]

Shotguns generally... people don't stroll around in trauma plates and kevlar too often.

I'd agree guns are too easy to obtain in the US. I mean... they market pink pistols to the 20 something female crowd. I know 2 girls who I wouldn't trust with a sharp pencil much less a firearm... the government disagrees with me however. On the other hand, I am roughly 10 minutes from the nearest police station. You could kill me and my whole family 10 times over in that time frame. We also have a variety of predatory animals that seem to have a taste for local pets, despite the fact that there are all kinds of laws preventing me from doing anything to gators which pose the scariest threat in my mind around here.

You've gotta remember that gun owners aren't just sitting in their rocking chair on the front porch drawing down on whoever shows up in the driveway. All gun owners I know understand the difference between misunderstanding, lost driver, someone asking directions, etc. and a home invader. As I said above... it boils right down to how the person trespassing (accidentally or otherwise) acts. If the person rings the doorbell or knocks, I'm not even going to consider unlocking the cabinet, digging out some shells, etc. If the person is creeping through the house at 4:30 in the morning, I probably will unlock the cabinet, etc. Still, I'm not going to just start firing at random... You'll know I'm there, I will make clear instructions as to what I would like you to do (in both english and spanish...because I'm just thoughtful like that), and I essentially will let you decide how that particular encounter is going to end. Beyond that, I have personally resolved long ago that unless random home invader is seconds from harming a member of my family to aim for the least fatal area possible. I can't promise you will live with buckshot in your leg, but you have a much better chance than in your chest. Guns, like computers, are tools. Used responsibly, they are great. Used irresponsibly, people get hurt and you go to prison. It's all about the operator.

Most people who would act irrationally with a firearm would have one anyway, even if they are not legal in their state. Gun laws create a system for good upstanding citizens to use for arming themselves, and creates a tracking system for those unsavory folks as well, who are dumb enough to register then use a gun unlawfully.

[Atebos]

Get off my lawn.

And if you don't, I'll blow a hole in your face then go inside and sleep like a baby.

[Elfrosto]

I think with proper registration, licensing and classes mandatory, it's a good idea. Give me a gun, then come **** with me...Bet you won't do it again!

[J.Twendrist]

You should have to qualify with a gun and have a safety exam to own one. I'm a gun enthusiast and I support those two things.

[KRins]

You should have to qualify with a gun and have a safety exam to own one. I'm a gun enthusiast and I support those two things.

AMEN! A cop buddy of mine shot himself in the foot while in the academy... come on now. Certain people are not ready for the firearms world...or maybe the firearms world isn't ready for them.

[mya]

yes

yes

it's complicated

civilians whit firearms are just a huge problem.

I live in a now bankrupt countrie and it's quite safe.

Sure we got burgelars, but if you meet one you pick a broom and shoo him out.

Most murders here are crimes of passion or farmers/honor disputes

and police tends to go pretty hard on criminals with guns.

civs with guns just means that all burglars start having guns, and people shooting insted or running.

It's a culture thing. If you shoot someone here because they broke into your house YOU are going to jail.

Police and the state dispences justice, not citizens.

As long as there is no violence, and you can run you cannot fire. Self defence only.

And don't think police is meek here. They are for most part, but when things get serious, police get serious.

Portuguese Guy barricates with aleged explosives, and

threaten to blow up. Police does nothing but talk. Found out in end that no explosives present.

Brazilians come and make the first hostage bank situation ever on country. They got sniped out in the head, in live TV i think.

And 12+ years ago some gipsy got decapitated inside my city police station...

And spain was mentioned as a torture country cause of police actions inside police stations...

Yet alsmost no one carries a gun.

[J.Twendrist]

1. Every gun is always loaded.

2. Keep the finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire.

3. Never point a gun at something you aren't willing to destroy.

3 easy rules to follow and you'll never have an AD (accidental discharge)

[J.Twendrist]

It's not just about self defense though. In America the mindset with guns is that the people having them is the ultimate check to the government. Should there ever need to be another armed uprising? I most certainly hope not. But it is the function of the government to grow, and throughout history governments have a tendancy to overstep their bounds. They need to know that there is a non-governmental check. I am not advocating a civil war to overthrow the government, I merely state that the government does need to remember we do have guns and aren't about to be stepped on like some other countries (ie the middle east)

[mya]

armies are made of citizens. They are the safe keepers of democracy, not civilians with guns.

[KRins]

armies are made of citizens. They are the safe keepers of democracy' date=' not civilians with guns.[/quote']

You realize the army is DIRECTLY controlled by the government right? If you, as a member of the military, attempt to act against the government on ANY level you are sent to a military tribunal and likely executed for treason. Civilians having access to weapons, be it for home defense or recreation, is essentially one of the only checks that prevents a government with the power like the United States from becoming a dictatorship. Notice how a lot of countries these days are rising up in Middle East... its because they are slowly realizing that they both need and deserve rights similar to the ones enjoyed in the United States. Fact of the matter is, the government needs to know they govern at the will of the people, not against and not despite that will. Firepower is one of the greatest ways to prevent from being trampled by a superior force.

As a side note: The fact there isn't rampant gun ownership is a good thing in Portugal... the drug policy IN NO WAY makes it even worth considering opening gun ownership to the public.

[Pali]

armies are made of citizens. They are the safe keepers of democracy' date=' not civilians with guns.[/quote']

If you can, Mya, please name one democratic revolution in history that was led by the military of the country rather than the civilian population. As far as I know, you will not be able to do this.

[f0xx]

It's not just about self defense though. In America the mindset with guns is that the people having them is the ultimate check to the government. Should there ever need to be another armed uprising? I most certainly hope not. But it is the function of the government to grow' date=' and throughout history governments have a tendancy to overstep their bounds. They need to know that there is a non-governmental check. I am not advocating a civil war to overthrow the government, I merely state that the government does need to remember we do have guns and aren't about to be stepped on like some other countries (ie the middle east)[/quote']

Gotta love them americanos

[Atticus]

We are the united, and free.

A problem with this?

talk to my 9mm glock *****

[Mali]

Atticus, why not try adding to the discussion without threatening violence? I know you are joking, but others may not. Best to keep it civil.

Thanks everyone for the posts so far. Keep em' coming!

[Atticus]

My first comment was about a katana, I mean- yeah.

Previous statement was to be taken as satire, seems the "lack of context and tone" would greatly effect the view, added with bias- jeeze, I'm here rambling.

I work in a gas station, and today- just like last week, and the week before then- I have been on the business end of a knife, gun, or some graphic explanation of how my brains are going to be on the back of the wall.

I believe in the right to carry, and believe it or not- there are some STRICT regulations in my state, and many others, that keep the biggest factor of criminal (both gang and drug related ) out of the equation- handguns.

I'll be brief in conveying my experience today, it started off like any other- I was late, but I had a damn good excuse for it

work went on, crack heads- blue bloods - rednecks, all walks of life, I see, greet and take care of everyday.

The location of this gas station mind you is right down the street from one of the local crack dealers, that yes, I sell cigars and red bulls to at 6:30 every morning. This guy peddles his wares to an individual i find myself confronted with at the end of my shift.

6:30pm- Jean, a girl that I know, from my girlfriend and such- was getting gas, and two "rather dark" lanky, strung out guys were cat calling her.

When that got into the store, I joked, if more than anything "Lets not harass the women."

The followed next was a set of very simple words, I dont believe the guy had much of a vocabulary to draw upon- I'll just say "Brains on the back of the wall."

What irks my the most about this, is I come here, and there is all this bickering about US regulations, concerning US citizens. Im not here to say, "you dont have an opinion", or "You aren't American, so I don't care"

There are probably reasons why you don't live here, and our beautiful, free country. I am sure as well, where you are, if you love it- you wouldn't want anyone stabbing, if anything at your people- and the like.

I am an American Ninja, and I say, "Lock and load, but control is key."

A.

[Nekky]

What I'd like to know is this - Is there any kind of REAL testing and education process involved in getting a firearm license or a firearm? I know that the governing body does background checks, and this weeds out psychopaths and criminals, but to me this seems like doing the bare minimum to wash your hands of responsibility.

Do you have to attend some kind of course, or class like you would when learning to drive a car, or are you simply entitled to a firearm?

I ask this for two reasons.

1) I, like KRins, know plenty of people who are not criminals or psychos that I would NOT trust even with a cap gun.

2) With something as potentially dangerous as a gun, I can see a lot of occasions where well-meaning, intelligent people could do serious damage by accident.

Re: (1) - How strictly are people examined before being able to purchase a gun? Is it just people with criminal records and history of mental disease that may be barred? Or is there a test for the average idiot who might think it's funny to play with his weapon while drunk, or to scare his neighbor for parking across his driveway?

Re: (2) - I know a guy who lives in Michigan who is a hunting enthusiast (I have no beef with people owning guns for that). He always tells me that there are a whole ****-load of rules for when you can fire. For example, you should always wait until your target has solid ground behind it, in case you miss, so the bullet won't just fly off into the distance and hit who knows what.

Is the average gun owner educated in this way? What if a gun owner is living in a duplex or apartment that has a shared wall, and they legitimately pull their gun on a burglar. Do they know that if they fire and miss, the projectiles could go through the shared wall and hit their next door neighbor while he's in his bedroom?

I'm not just trying to come up with abstract examples to push a "Guns are always bad!" type of argument, I am legitimately curious about the education and screening processes that one has to go through.

I mean, I know that the guy who did the V-Tech shooting was on all kinds of psychiatric watch lists, and listed as a danger to himself and others in government databases, and he managed to buy more than one semi-automatic weapon just fine.

re: Atticus: This forum consists of many nationalities, and when Mali made this thread he didn't say "Only US citizens should respond". I think that most of the non-US citizens who have responded haven't been trashing America.

[Mali]

In Florida, you do go through a background check when attempting to purchase a firearm. All sorts of factors may disqualify you.

A class (NRA pistol I or equivalent) is required only when applying for a permit to conceal carry here. Then even more factors may disqualify you, such as domestic violence convictions or drug possession.

A license to carry is just that, and not a license to kill or a license to fire. That is covered separately under provisions related to escalation of force and "justifiable" homicide.

I'm not stating an opinion either way here, just responding to nekky's questions!

[Djriacen]

In Texas a background check is required for any firearm. To get a conceal carry license you have to take a class, but it only takes one day. I believe there is a three day wait for hand guns and rifles with pistol type grips (like the ar-15). You don't need any training in any firearm to just buy one though, and that's what I find sketchy.

[Atticus]

background check in SC too- and an even more strict concealed carrying permit when it comes to obtaining.

[Pali]

It's not just about self defense though. In America the mindset with guns is that the people having them is the ultimate check to the government.

And yet, with most Americans I've talked to, their actual personal motivation for owning a gun is self-defense against criminals, NOT worries about a government that is too tyrannical. Hell, read this thread... few who have come down heavily on the pro-gun-ownership side have done so because they're worried about tyranny, but because they're worried about someone breaking into their place to rob or hurt someone living there.

If this has become our motivation for owning guns, fine - but the pretending to be worried about dictatorial government while actually being worried that a neighbor is going to break into your place tonight annoys me.

EDIT: Concealed carry is not allowed in Wisconsin. As far as I know, there is a background check that must be done before purchasing a firearm at most places that sell them... however, gun shows in Wisconsin remain a major loophole to this restriction here.

To put it simply... if I have $500-1000 and want a gun, I can get one without much trouble or registration (edit: without resorting to the black market, and within a couple of days).

P.S. For Atticus - I'm American, and I find my fellow countrymen to be very strange creatures in many, many ways - their fixation with guns is only one of those ways.

[J.Twendrist]

And yet, with most Americans I've talked to, their actual personal motivation for owning a gun is self-defense against criminals, NOT worries about a government that is too tyrannical. Hell, read this thread... few who have come down heavily on the pro-gun-ownership side have done so because they're worried about tyranny, but because they're worried about someone breaking into their place to rob or hurt someone living there.

If this has become our motivation for owning guns, fine - but the pretending to be worried about dictatorial government while actually being worried that a neighbor is going to break into your place tonight annoys me.

You ain't talkin' to the Texans that I know. And quite frankly there are many groups that are just a little too hard core on these issues, which leads to issues like waco. Not saying these groups don't exist, but they most certainly do and represent the extreame side of that argument. If there are people who support it all the way to the battlefield I am sure plenty of people support it in idealology alone.

Also, do you think our government is soooooo perfect that it is 100% gaurenteed to never mess with it's people? ever? I hate to tell everyone bleeding heart liberal this, but guess what, guns made America possible. Ask the English if they would have left us alone without them.

[Pali]

...the populace of a county being allowed to own weapons is a check on government power over the individual and I value that check...

...There are times when fighting back against a repressive power is the only recourse left to people, and I don't want to deny them that ability. Even if the United States, as I think it is now, is a country where violent uprising against the government isn't justified - it's possible that it may be in the future, and I don't want to deny that future populace the means needed to protect themselves from exploitation...

This thread, dude. I said these things on this thread.

EDIT: To put it simply, I am not a "bleeding heart liberal." I am simply not blind to the damage that our collective decision to allow private gun ownership has done to social cohesion and health, in the same way that I am not blind to the damage that our collective decision to allow private car ownership kills tens of thousands over Americans every year and injures hundreds of thousands if not millions more. I am also not blind to how removed the current mentality of gun ownership is from what it was two and a quarter centuries ago (secessionists aside), nor to how the lethality of firearms that are operable and affordable by individuals has increased by orders of magnitude from that time. I've also clearly stated that, in the end, I do not think private ownership of firearms is the real issue - the lack of societal health overall is the problem, and in an unhealthy society easy access to firearms exacerbates the situation. Firearms themselves are not the problem - our tolerance of people living in crappy conditions within our country is the problem.