Bin Laden dead

[Pali]

Is the good old guillotine proper and civil?

More civil than hanging, you betcha.

[Atebos]

Civil? Where was the "civility" in the beheadings of foreigners by dull blade?

[Twinblades713]

It would also be more fun to watch. D:

[Rensvert]

Am I the only one who actually thinks its sad that America is happy he is dead? By no means do I think the guy should not have been left free to do as he pleased but its still a human life we are talking about, and despite what he did it leaves a bad taste in my mouth thinking about people being glad he's dead. Maybe its just me but to me it seems as if we as American's are moving backwards instead of forwards.

[jibber]

How is it bad to be happy a terrorist is dead? A man who would have continued to kill had we not removed him first? How is it we're moving backward, instead of forward because we're hopeful that this War may be over soon with the death of one of the terrorist leaders?

[Twinblades713]

Being glad he's dead doesn't make me hate more in my daily life, it doesn't make me bitter, it doesn't make me sad for myself, or sad for him. He chose his own path, to be a murderous, terrorizing demon to our race. The guy deserves no pity, no quietude in his death, no grace. If he truly regrets what he does, I believe God will forgive him. But -I- truly believe he was a horrid wretch that deserves no less. No one lived his life but him.

I disregard a human life once that life has chosen to disregard millions of others. Am I the same as him? No... I don't murder people and premeditate plans to destroy countries and countless lives.

*edited to appear less passionate and potentially offensive.

[Pali]

Civil? Where was the "civility" in the beheadings of foreigners by dull blade?

So, sink to the level of our enemies, then? I mean, we're already cool with torture, why not drawn-out torturous executions too?

Am I the only one who actually thinks its sad that America is happy he is dead?

No.

[Pali]

If he truly regrets what he does' date=' I believe God will forgive him.[/quote']

And yet the trick is, he probably died believing God was on his side, that he was doing God's work, that he was fighting the righteous fight against evil imperialist Christian powers.

It's so much easier when we just label someone as "evil" and say that they deserved to die than it is to try to understand why they did what they did. Edit: And by the way, to keep things in perspective, remember that the US's responses to 9/11 (the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq) have resulted in the deaths of, at bare minimum, about a hundred times the number of people who died on 9/11. Other estimates I've seen will say far higher. And nearly all of these people had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Bin Laden may have participated in conspiracy to commit mass murder (this is the highest crime I understand him to likely be guilty of), but everyone who supported the US's invasions of Middle Eastern countries over the last decade is guilty of the same crime. He justifies it as the will of Allah or whatever, we justify it as necessary casualties on the road to democracy or justice or whatever.

But they're not Americans, so they're not protected by the Constitution, so what do we care, right?

[Twinblades713]

Pali, I don't care about anything else in that post. I was talking about him. He was a monster. Your comments on the U.S. dot dot dot whatever are irrelevant.

I like skiing and ketchup, irrelevant but true.

btw: Command and Conquer was the first RTS I ever played. It was cool. *Also irrelevant*

[Pali]

He was a monster.

It's so much easier when we just label someone as "evil" and say that they deserved to die than it is to try to understand why they did what they did.

That's the part you should have read.

EDIT: And when we're willing to kill innocents on the road to killing a man for killing innocents, yes, I consider that hypocrisy extremely relevant. I am truly sorry that you do not.

[Twinblades713]

Last post in this thread. I win.

Wish I could have a opinion that isn't governed by Pali.

[jibber]

And yet the trick is, he probably died believing God was on his side, that he was doing God's work, that he was fighting the righteous fight against evil imperialist Christian powers.

It's so much easier when we just label someone as "evil" and say that they deserved to die than it is to try to understand why they did what they did.

But they're not Americans, so they're not protected by the Constitution, so what do we care, right?

Eh, try telling that to the victims' families of the 9/11 attacks. Gotta say though, I kind of knew you'd be taking that sort of stance.

[Pali]

*sigh*

For crying out loud, I'm not defending the guy or anything he did. I just think it's short-sighted and naive to label him as "evil" and leave it at that when it comes to his motivations and actions. Good and evil are terms that people far too readily apply to real life (superstitious ignoramus, borderline sociopath, those are terms I'm cool with applying - evil is not).

[Streetfighter]

ALRIGHT, THATS IT. Bring it in guys, come on lets hug it out.

[Balgashang]

I'm all for backsliding into the wild west. Duels should be legal. Public executions should be horrific and agonizing, drawn and quarted, dismantling people a joint at a time, cauterizing the wound, repeat. (start with the fingers and toes, people!) Also, I am against the state pressing charges when its agreed to fight by two grown adults (or juveniles of a similiar age). Anyone ever read Machiavelli?

[Imoutgoodbye]

Anyone ever read Machiavelli?

One line with so much wrapped into it...classic, man, just classic.

EDIT: On a side note, being as I'm not allowed to express my personal opinion much anymore since I've started working towards being a teacher, yes, I'm glad he's dead. Yes, I consider him to have been a monster.

Then again, when I have to turn on the news and see some drunken college idiot wrapped in an American flag talking about how he's patriotic and proud to be an American because the war on terrorism is won...well, then I just want to keep my mouth shut so I don't look like THAT. I'm well aware of media sensationalism. I'm well aware that the media has become more about ratings and selling their product so they expose the world to extreme ends of the spectrum. It's another point of why capitalism will fail this country. For something to be newsworthy, it has to be BIG. It has to be EXTREME. It has to be ENTERTAINING.

EDIT2: Looking at my post, I can see that THE PEOPLE fail as much as capitalism. Can't truly blame something non-living for the embracing of it. Especially when it only helps a minority of people and the majority just dream of having what the minority has. AKA...you have been VAMP SKILLED.

[Pali]

Duels should be legal. Public executions should be horrific and agonizing' date=' drawn and quarted, dismantling people a joint at a time, cauterizing the wound, repeat.[/quote']

Fully in favor of duels being legal. Not at all in favor of executions being public entertainment affairs - however, not in favor of execution period, so take that as you will.

[Rensvert]

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the most wise cannot see all ends.”-- J.R.R. Tolkien

Maybe I just can't agree with people being happy over someones death. Do I think that he should have been in prison the rest of his life, most definitely. But I can't agree with any form of execution, and regardless of who he was I do not think anyone should be happy he is dead.

"I have learned not to think little of any one's belief, no matter how strange it may be. I have tried to keep an open mind, and it is not the ordinary things of life that could close it, but the strange things, the extraordinary things, the things that make one doubt if they be mad or sane."--Bram Stoker

Rens

[Deykari]

*sigh*

For crying out loud, I'm not defending the guy or anything he did. I just think it's short-sighted and naive to label him as "evil" and leave it at that when it comes to his motivations and actions. Good and evil are terms that people far too readily apply to real life (superstitious ignoramus, borderline sociopath, those are terms I'm cool with applying - evil is not).

I completely and utterly agree with you. I've had the same perspective since it happened VS everyone else I seem to know.

Dey

[killalou]

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the most wise cannot see all ends.”-- J.R.R. Tolkien

Maybe I just can't agree with people being happy over someones death. Do I think that he should have been in prison the rest of his life, most definitely. But I can't agree with any form of execution, and regardless of who he was I do not think anyone should be happy he is dead.

"I have learned not to think little of any one's belief, no matter how strange it may be. I have tried to keep an open mind, and it is not the ordinary things of life that could close it, but the strange things, the extraordinary things, the things that make one doubt if they be mad or sane."--Bram Stoker

Rens

And here I thought only I was of this opinion...

[Pali]

And now it's been reported that bin Laden was not armed when he was killed - just lovely.

[Mali]

But I can't agree with any form of execution

Fail.

And now it's been reported that bin Laden was not armed when he was killed - just lovely.

I agree, it is lovely. But if you were speaking out of sarcasm: Fail.

however, not in favor of execution period

Fail.

*********************************************************

I do not rejoice over anyones death, however I recognize execution as an necessity of our times. Evil is not subjective in many cases, but has a very distinct face. Osama was evil. Danny Rollins was evil. Ted Bundy was evil. Hitler was evil. Pol pot was evil. Gacy was evil. BTK was evil. If some or all of these men have met with death then it is not only just, but good and they deserved it. Let us not suffer evil to walk among us. Let us not use tax dollars so that evil can hit the weights, watch oprah, eat three meals a day, and earn online degrees through prison.

Seriously, you guys take this hippy stuff WAY too far. Just like you would put down a rabid dog, so too those men (or women) who have given up their humanity in such a fashion as to invoke widespread horror and disdain.

[Twinblades713]

Mali <3

[Pali]

In bin Laden's case, I'm pretty fine with making an exception to my general disapproval of capital punishment, and I am happy that he is dead - the world is a better place without him in it.

However, that does NOT mean that I'm happy with the manner of his death. We didn't do summary executions or assassinations of Nazis - we had trials. We didn't just kill any one of those people you mentioned - we had trials. I am NOT okay with any one person having the power to order the death of another person without judicial proceedings of any kind having taken place - which is what happened here. The reports have been pretty clear that this was not an operation designed with the goal of capturing him. I am not okay with that. Our government should not be in the business of ordering assassinations, no matter the crime.

We have a judicial system for a reason. Use the damned thing.

EDIT: Also, the US is hardly the only place that wanted bin Laden - an international court similar to the Nuremburg Trials would've been my preferred way to have him dealt with.

EDIT 2: And no, Mali, it's not lovely - because the only thing that changes with him being unarmed rather than armed is that the perception that the US murdered him is now that much easier to spread in the Muslim world. I understand just fine that in combat situations split-second decisions regarding who is and isn't a threat need to be made, and those decisions should always err on the side of caution - caution being shoot-first-ask-later. I get that, and unless there arises solid evidence that he was executed in cold blood him being unarmed makes no difference in my assessment - but it will in the assessments of others. I can promise you that there will be plenty of people holding him up as a martyr, and him being shot while unarmed makes that image a lot stronger.

And once again, I have to express disapproval of lumping different people who did different things for different reasons under the umbrella term of "evil" and dismissing them all as beings unworthy of existing. Viewing people as "evil" makes it far, far too easy to ignore WHY they were what they were. I've seen no evidence that Hitler or bin Laden were psychopaths - they were people who grew up under extreme conditions and were influenced by extreme ideologies, and both, as far as I know, viewed themselves as righteous men fighting on God's side. If we don't want more of them, we can't just dismiss them as evil - we need to understand why they thought as they thought, and just as importantly why so many followed them.

Besides, for an allegedly Christian country, we sure like to push aside those forgiveness and redemption ideas. I mean, what if Luke had just dismissed Darth Vader as evil and killed him?

[mmajunkie]

Killing civilian women and children purposefully is evil. Plain and simple. No God warrants that. Don't have to be a psychopath to be evil. I believe A LOT of what Hitler believed politically and on a personal level, but I do not condone his actions whatsoever.